Category: Azerbaijan

  • Azerbaijan, Armenia Hold ‘Serious’ Talks On Karabakh

    Azerbaijan, Armenia Hold ‘Serious’ Talks On Karabakh

    F031016B 7B73 4553 91BF AC4BAD1F7302 mw203 sArmenian President Serzh Sarkisian (right) and his Azerbaijani counterpart Ilham Aliyev meet in Chisinau on October 8
    October 09, 2009
    CHISINAU (Reuters) — The presidents of Azerbaijan and Armenia held constructive talks on the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh on October 8 and will meet again soon, a U.S. envoy said.

    Success in the talks in the Moldovan capital is seen as key to easing the way for restoring relations between Christian Armenia and Muslim Turkey to end a century of hostility.

    U.S. ambassador Robert Bradtke said the meeting between Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev and Armenia’s Serzh Sarkisian continued “a positive dynamic in the discussions” on the future of the mountainous enclave.

    “The discussions were serious and constructive. They have agreed to meet again in the near future,” Bradtke, who appeared alongside envoys from Russia and France, told reporters.

    But there was no word on the substance of the talks.

    Violence erupted in the mountainous territory of Nagorno-Karabakh, an ethnic Armenian enclave within Azerbaijan’s internationally recognised borders, in the late 1980s as the Soviet Union headed towards its 1991 collapse.

    Ethnic Armenian forces, backed by Armenia, drove out Azeri troops and took control of seven districts of Azerbaijan adjacent to Nagorno-Karabakh.

    Some 30,000 people were killed in the war and many more people displaced.

    Russian ambassador Yury Merzlyakov said the next meeting between the two presidents would be “relatively soon.”

    Both men were to stay on in Chisinau on October 9 when they will meet Russian President Dmitry Medvedev as part of a summit of ex-Soviet republics within the Commonwealth of Independent States.

    It was not clear if they would hold a second round of face-to-face talks on Karabakh then.
       
    Ease Tension

    Analysts said the outcome of the October 8 talks in Chisinau  was important in terms of a scheduled meeting in Zurich on October 10 when Armenia and Turkey are scheduled to sign an accord to normalize ties.

    The hostility between the two nations dates back to mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman forces in World War I.

    Turkey broke off diplomatic relations and closed its border with Armenia in 1993 in solidarity with its ally Azerbaijan.

    An agreement to normalize ties and open the border would bolster Turkey’s credentials as a moderniser in the West, boost the poverty-stricken economy of landlocked Armenia, and improve security in the South Caucasus, a transit corridor for oil and gas to the West.

    Merzlyakov said the Zurich meeting between Armenia and Turkey did not figure in the Chisinau talks. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is to attend the Zurich ceremony.

    French envoy Bernard Fassier said the work of the Minsk group, which comprises the United States, Russia, and France and sponsors international efforts to find a Karabakh settlement, was “without links to other processes.”

    Aliyev and Sarkisian have much to lose at home if they are seen to make concessions over the emotive issue of Nagorno-Karabakh.

    Both men looked tense as they posed for cameras at the start of the talks which were held at the residence of the U.S. ambassador and lasted nearly 3 1/2 hours.

    A Turkish parliamentarian, speaking ahead of the talks, said it would be difficult to secure parliamentary approval in Turkey for any normalization of ties with Armenia if the talks on Karabakh did not show progress.

  • Current Turkish “opening” to Armenia cannot be supported

    Current Turkish “opening” to Armenia cannot be supported

    By Ferruh Demirmen

    The Turkey-Armenia normalization process, due to take effect soon, in its present form carry imponderables that raise serious questions as to its merits for Turkey.

    Three major Turkish-American umbrella organizations, the Assembly of Turkish American Associations (ATAA), Turkish Coalition of America (TCA), and the Federation of Turkish American Associations (FTAA), regrettably issued statements recently in support of the normalization process.

    In their endorsement, ATAA and TCA stressed, as has the Turkish government, the importance of diplomatic relations between Turkey and Armenia in pursuit of regional peace, while FTAA, being more prophetic, argued that the process would be a blow to the Armenian diaspora, making it ineffective in its lobbying efforts against Turkey.

    There is, however, fierce opposition to the normalization process both in Turkey and Armenia.

    No pre-conditions

    The normalization process, in its present form, is ill-founded, ill-advised, and cannot be supported from the Turkish point of view. The arguments advanced for normalization, while sounding reasonable, and in principle commendable, represent to a large extent wishful thinking for the Turkish side, not backed by the two diplomatic protocols announced by Turkey and Armenia. The protocols, initialed on August 31 and due to be signed on October 10, form the blueprint for the normalization process.

    Reading through the protocols, the one thing that is striking is the generality of the language and the lack of concrete steps to be taken to resolve the outstanding issues between Turkey and Armenia. No caveat or pre-conditions are attached to normalization and the opening of the common border.

    Given that the opening of the border will overwhelmingly benefit Armenia, the protocols call for no concessions from Armenia.

    Genocide allegations and the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict are the chief thorny issues between the two countries; but for Turkey, Armenia’s hitherto hostile behavior is also a cause for deep resentment.

    Genocide issue

    On the genocide issue, the protocols call for the establishment of a bilateral commission to study “the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including … an examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations.” There is no mention to specifically address the genocide issue, whether it happened or not.

    Nor is there any commitment to open Armenian archives for examination. Turkish archives are already open.

    Likewise, the time frame for the completion of the commission’s work is left open. This work may continue for years, during which time the border will remain open.

    Swiss and other international experts will be joining Armenian and Turkish experts, and herein lies a potential trap for Turkey – considering how the West is already biased against the Turkish position. Switzerland is one country where denial of “Armenian genocide” is punishable by law. France is another one.

    Furthermore, assuming that the commission will reach a well-defined conclusion, there is no commitment on the part of Armenia that it would abide by this conclusion, or that it would try to dissuade the diaspora Armenians from continuing the genocide rhetoric.

    In its August 23, 1990 Declaration of Independence, Armenia stated that it will continue supporting international recognition of “the 1915 genocide,” and has done so ever since.

    It is probable that the Armenian diaspora will press for genocide recognition with undiminished fervor, with implicit if not explicit support of Armenia, regardless of the conclusions reached by the historical commission. The Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA), the chief lobbying arm of the diaspora in America, is firmly against the Turkish-Armenian protocols. The Armenian-American community, in general, is also opposed.

    With the diaspora’s anti-Turkish lobbying efforts continuing in full force, Armenia can, as a last resort, “wash its hands off,” arguing that it has no “control” on the diaspora.

    There are also reports from Armenian sources that the Armenian government will insist that the historical commission should focus not on whether “genocide” occurred – because this is a given “fact” – but rather, how it occurred.

    In a recent interview with the Armenian Reporter in New York, Armenian President Serge Sargsian noted that Armenia and the diaspora are “one family,” and that  recognition of “genocide” is a “long-awaited victory for justice.”

    A clear message, but not a helpful one for normalizing relations.

    So, how is the establishment of the historical commission as foreseen in the protocols really make a difference as far as genocide allegations? A check of reality is in order here.

    Nagorno-Karabagh conflict

    The language in the protocols on the Nagorno-Karabagh issue is even fuzzier. Other than a “commitment to the peaceful settlement of regional and international disputes,” the protocols contain no concrete reference to the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict. There is no mention of ending the illegal occupation of the Azeri territory by Armenia – notwithstanding the UN resolutions – of the innocent Azeri civilians that fell victim to ethnic cleansing by Armenian forces, and of the plight of one million Azeri refugees.

    On a recent visit to Moscow, the Armenian Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian stated that the Nagorno-Karabagh issue never entered into negotiations with Turkey, and never will.

    Still, as part of the normalization process, Armenia may implement a cosmetic withdrawal from the occupied territory, but this will fall well short of the UN demands, and will not in any way satisfy Azerbaijan. The Minsk Group has been ineffective to date.

    In any case, while the Nagorno-Karabagh issue drags on in negotiations, the Turkey-Armenia border will remain open.

    Occupation of Nagorno-Karabagh by Armenian forces was the reason Turkey closed the Turkey-Armenia border in 1993.

    Normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations without the solution of the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict will be a “sellout” by Turkey of brotherly Azerbaijan, and a betrayal of Azeri nation’s trust in Turkey.

    Other than trust, the chief fallout from a rift in Azeri-Turkish relations will be energy projects – including Shah Deniz II gas supply for the Nabucco project. Throughput to the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) crude pipeline may also be curtailed, and the Kazakh oil reaching Baku (due to increase following recent agreement between Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan) across the Caspian Sea, instead of the BTC outlet, will likely be exported from the Black Sea ports of Supsa (Georgia) or Novorossiysk (Russia).

    Economics aside, that will increase oil tanker traffic through the Bosporus.

    Should these eventualities materialize, Turkish politicians, or rather the AKP leaders, will have a lot in their hands to “explain.”

    Other issues

    Other thorny issues between Turkey and Armenia include refusal of Armenia to recognize the 1921 Kars Agreement (signed between Turkey and the three neighboring Soviet Republics defining the borders), reference to Mount Ararat as a national symbol in Armenia’s Constitution, inclusion of the Mount Ararat insignia on Armenia’s national flag, and reference to eastern Turkey as “Western Armenia” in the Armenian Declaration of Independence.

    Such stance on the part of Armenia is an antithesis of good intentions towards a neighbor. Yet, apart from a veiled reference to the Kars Agreement, the issue is largely ignored in the Turkish-Armenian protocols.

    How could a country like Turkey normalize relations with a neighbor when the latter signals territorial claims on its neighbor – and does not want to alter its mind-set?

    Could the U.S. have a normal diplomatic relation with Mexico if the latter claimed in its Constitution that the southwest U.S. is part of a larger Mexico?

    Lingering in the background, of course, is the nefarious ASALA terror that caused the death of more than 40 Turkish diplomats in various countries in the 1970’s and ‘80’s.

    Armenia cannot be directly blamed for ASALA’s terror, but the Armenian officials have not publically condemned the dastardly acts of ASALA.

    Memories are still fresh on Armenian president Andranik Makarian’s warm welcome extended to the ASALA terrorist Varadian Garabedian when the latter was released from French prison in 2001. The Yerevan mayor Rober Nazarian gave the terrorist assurance that he would be given food, shelter and a job in Yerevan. In fact, Garabedian received a hero’s welcome when he stepped into Armenian soil. He had been convicted in France of the 1983 bombing of the Turkish Airlines bureau at the Paris-Orly airport, killing 8 people and wounding 61.

    Call for judgment

    The notion of normalizing relations between Turkey and Armenia is applaudable. Peace and political stability in the region require such normalization, and no reasonable person can oppose this process. Normalization, however, should be predicated on the ending of all hostile elements in the relations between the two countries.

    Other than closing the border in 1993, Turkey has not nurtured any adversarial notions towards Armenia. Countless Turkish citizens of Armenian origin, with their churches, hospitals, charities, etc. live peacefully in Turkey, enjoying the full rights of any Turkish citizen, including the right to vote, while at the same time the presence of some 70,000 illegal Armenian workers in Turkey is tolerated.

    No Armenian flags are publically burned or trampled upon on national holidays in Turkey, and children are not indoctrinated with anti-Armenian sentiments – in families, schools or mosques – from day one of reaching their consciousness.

    The despicable murder of Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink – by unknown forces still under investigation – in January 2007 in Istanbul was widely condemned in Turkey, many Turks taking to the streets chanting “We are all Armenians,” or “We are all Hrant Dink.”

    Compare these realities with those in Armenia, and the Armenian diaspora, and what a stark, depressing contrast emerges! One would be hard put, for example, to find a single functioning mosque in Armenia.

    And no president of a Turkish-American organization was charged with and convicted of terror activities, like the ex-ANCA president Murat Topalian, who received, in 2001, a 3-year prison sentence in Ohio court for his involvement in a bomb attack against the Turkish House in New York in 1981.

    Notwithstanding some gross exaggerations, e.g., 1.5 million purported deaths, Armenians have a genuine sorrowful history to tell going back to World War I, and they want Turkey to account for the sad history. But Turks also have a painful, traumatic history, with 2.5 million Moslems (Turks and Kurds) contemporaneously perished in Anatolia, some half a million at the hands of renegade Armenian bands that joined the invading Russian and French forces, hitting the Ottoman forces from behind.

    Wartime tragedies are like the two sides of a coin, and if Armenia insists on accounting of history, it must also show empathy for the other side and face the excesses of its own history.

    That is why, it is essential that the historical commission that is envisioned in the protocols have access to all archival documents, Armenian and Turkish included, and the commission’s purview should be making a comprehensive review of the World War I events in their entirety.

    Turkey is prepared to face its history. Is Armenia prepared to face its own?

    Christian sympathies for the Armenian claims should not ignore or overlook tragedies visited on the Moslems.

    Wrap-up

    Wrapping up, reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia in principle is commendable, and in fact, long overdue. But such a process must first remove hostile attitudes that exist between the two countries. Because the animus, or an attitude of hostility, has been very largely on the Armenian side, Armenia must first change its attitude toward Turkey, e.g., by revising its Constitution.

    An expression of sorrow on the ASALA terror would be also helpful.

    The two Turkish-Armenian protocols, however, give no assurance or confidence that Armenia will take these steps. Based on ambiguous, noncommittal language in the protocols, one can only hope for a positive change on the Armenian side.

    But hope is not sufficient. There should be greater certitude in the protocols as to how Armenia will alter its conduct.

    The only certain clause in the protocols is the one that calls for the opening of the Turkey-Armenia border within 2 months after the protocols take force. There is little doubt that the land-locked Armenia, with most of its population living in poverty, will reap major economic gains from the free-trade opportunities afforded by a re-opened border.

    Once the border is opened, it will be virtually impossible to reverse the process regardless of how Armenia behaves. Closure of the border would draw harsh criticism from the U.S. and the EU.

    The Turkish-Armenian protocols, devoid of any pre-conditions, are being pushed by Turkey’s AKP government at the strong urging of the U.S., in particular President Obama in person. The EU is also pressuring Turkey. By signing these protocols, the government hopes to earn “brownie points” from the U.S. and the EU in an effort to further advance its Islamic political agenda.

    This is regrettable. While the issue is one of political convenience for the AKP government, it is essentially a matter of national dignity for Turkey.

    A fundamental question that the government must explain is, other than “brownie points,” what it will actually gain from the signing of the two protocols. If the purpose is to deflect the Obama administration from recognizing Armenian “genocide” – as President Obama said he would during the election campaign – it is a black mark for the Turkish foreign policy. It would be caving in to what is effectively a blackmail.

    When he visited Turkey in April, Obama inveighed that he had not changed his “thinking” on genocide allegations. The implication – a veiled threat – was not lost on Turks.

    Another key question is, if the protocols are ratified by the Turkish Parliament and they become binding, how the government will handle the Azeris’ certain displeasure. Prime Minister Tayyip Erdoğan has repeatedly assured the Azeris that he will not disappoint them. Yet, the protocols give little hope of a diplomatic breakthrough in the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict.

    Perhaps the government is hoping secretly that the Parliament will decline to ratify the protocols, letting the PM effectively “off the hook.” That eventuality, of course, will trigger another headache. Parliamentary ratification is a Constitutional requirement in Turkey. The Parliament, however, cannot make any alterations to the protocols. It can only ratify or reject them.

    The indications are that the Turkish government has forced itself into a predicament, possibly even a trap, of its own making.

    In this context, it is particularly disconcerting that, according to Nalbandian, the text of the Turkish-Armenian protocols was prepared entirely by the Armenian side, with Turkey suggesting only minor revisions. Why such passivity on the part of Turkish foreign ministry?

    There is a perception that the Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu’s vision of “strategic depth” and “zero problems with neighbors” is turning the country into a weakling of a country lacking resolve and respectability. 

    It is also regrettable that ATAA, TCA and FTAA have lent support to the normalization process in its present form. Apparently they (at least ATAA and TCA) have chosen to toe the line with the official Turkish government policy. Living on a day-to-day basis with the realities of the Armenian propaganda perpetrated across America, these organizations should have known better. At the very least, they should have stayed neutral on the issue.

    [email protected]

  • Sarkisian Unrepentant About Turkey Deal After Diaspora Trip

    Sarkisian Unrepentant About Turkey Deal After Diaspora Trip

    7FE9AD99 310E 4C18 8751 5CC66A0FFB38 w393 sArmenia — President Serzh Sarkisian delivers a speech.
    08.10.2009
    Emil Danielyan, Sargis Harutyunyan

    President Serzh Sarkisian dismissed domestic and Diaspora criticism of his conciliatory policy towards Turkey on Thursday after wrapping up a tense intercontinental tour of major Armenian communities abroad that sparked angry street demonstrations.

    Sarkisian blasted organizers of one of those protests staged last Friday in Paris, the first leg of the weeklong charm offensive that also took him to the United States, Lebanon and Russia.

    Some 200 Armenians gathered near an Armenian genocide memorial in the French capital, condemning the fence-mending agreements that are expected to be signed by the Armenian and Turkish governments in the coming days. The protest turned violent when riot police pushed back the crowd as the Armenian leader laid a wreath there. Police dragged several protesters away kicking and screaming.

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    Armenians in Lebanon protest against Armenias rapprochement with Turkey during President Serzh Sarkisians visit to Beirut.

    Addressing his National Security Council, Sarkisian said the wreath-laying ceremony was meant to underline the importance of genocide recognition for Turkish-Armenian reconciliation. “I expected that we will put on display our unity and position on this issue with a massive demonstration, rather than a provocation by 100 persons,” he said.

    One of the organizers of the demonstration, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun), sought on Thursday to rationalize furious Diaspora reactions to what it considers a sellout deal with Turkey. “People became unmanageable and unrestrained,” said Hrant Markarian, a top Dashnaktsutyun leader. “There were also incidents, outbursts. [Turkish-Armenian] developments were assessed in an extreme fashion. We didn’t feel good but this was the reaction of a raw nerve.”

    The authorities in Yerevan must “respect and reckon with that opinion,” said Markarian. “The Diaspora is facing the danger of losing its raison d’etre,” added the Diaspora-born politician.

    Sarkisian downplayed, however, this and other vocal expressions of dissent that accompanied his high-profile meetings with influential community figures around the world. “My goal was not say on my return from the pan-Armenian trip that the Diaspora stands for the signing of the Turkish-Armenian protocols,” he said.

    The president nonetheless found the trip useful, saying that he received “very important messages.” “I had a chance to once again feel just how different we are depending on our birthplace, community of residence, organizational affiliation and at the same time just how similar we are with our collective Armenian identity,” he said.

    Sarkisian spent most of his speech again defending his policy of rapprochement with Turkey and trying to allay serious concerns expressed by his some Diaspora groups. He insisted in particular that the planned establishment of a Turkish-Armenian panel of historians will not stop Yerevan from pressing more countries of the world to recognize the 1915 mass killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide.

    “On the question of the recognition and condemnation of the genocide, we have an obligation and we will fulfill that obligation till the end,” he told the advisory body comprising Armenia’s top state officials.

    Nationalist groups in Armenia and the Diaspora believe that such recognition should be eventually followed by Armenian territorial claims to parts of what is now eastern Turkey. They say that the Sarkisian administration precludes such possibility by agreeing to formally recognize Armenia’s existing border with Turkey.

    BA880032 4F36 435E 8B4D E333DDD8BB4A w203 s

    Armenia — The National Security Council meets to discuss Armenias agreements with Turkey.

    “Making territorial claims is not the best way to start normalizing relations,” countered Sarkisian. “There are realities of the 21st century political culture which we must take into account.”

    Sarkisian again brushed aside opposition allegations that as part of the Western-backed deal with Ankara he also agreed to ensure greater Armenian concessions in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. “We will never opt for unilateral concessions in the Nagorno-Karabakh issue, regardless of what we could be offered in return,” he said.

    The president also scoffed at suggestions that the reopening of the Turkish-Armenian border would make Armenia economically dependent on Turkey and hurt domestic manufacturers. “It is like suggesting that the best remedy against headache is decapitation,” he said.

    https://www.azatutyun.am/a/1846825.html
  • Nagorno-Karabakh: Getting to a Breakthrough

    Nagorno-Karabakh: Getting to a Breakthrough

    INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP – NEW BRIEFING

    Baku/Yerevan/Tbilisi/Brussels, 7 October 2009: Armenia and Azerbaijan should endorse a document on basic principles to end stalemate on the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict by the end of the year, or they will face an eventual return to full-scale hostilities.

    Nagorno-Karabakh: Getting to a Breakthrough,* the International Crisis Group’s latest policy briefing, examines the two-decades-old conflict and concludes there is reason for optimism that the political stalemate can be broken in today’s more supportive regional environment. However, it also warns that both governments and the international community must step up their efforts, as the status quo is increasingly untenable.

    “Although a deliberate military offensive from either side is unlikely in the near future, the ceasefire that ended active hostilities fifteen years ago is increasingly fragile”, says Lawrence Sheets, Crisis Group’s Caucasus Project Director. “There has been a steady increase in the frequency and intensity of armed skirmishes that could unintentionally spark a wider conflict”.

    The dispute between Armenia and Azerbaijan over the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh intensified following the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991. However, the two countries are now in substantial agreement on the framework of basic principles first outlined by the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) Minsk Group in 2005. This framework revolves around three fundamental principles: non-use of force, territorial integrity and self-determination.

    As a first step to conflict resolution, Presidents Sarkisian of Armenia and Aliyev of Azerbaijan must prepare their publics for a possible peace deal. At present, there is a danger of a backlash, especially among Armenians, that could derail any basic principles agreement. After this agreement is signed, Nagorno-Karabakh’s de facto authorities and the Nagorno-Karabakh Azeri representatives should be part of subsequent peace talks. Crisis Group recommends the use of a multi-layered format, including direct contacts between Azerbaijan and Karabakh Armenians to help promote dialogue.

    The international community, in particular the U.S., France and Russia as co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group, should intensify efforts to encourage Armenia and Azerbaijan to formally endorse the basic principles document and then open negotiations on a conclusive peace accord. The co-chairs should take advantage not only of their own productive collaboration, but also of current positive movement towards Armenia-Turkey rapprochement.

    “There are encouraging signs the sides are inching towards agreement”, explains Sabine Freizer, Crisis Group’s Europe Program Director. “But differences still remain between Armenia and Azerbaijan on the specifics of a final deal, most seriously over Nagorno-Karabakh’s final status, and there is mutual distrust between the societies. Though a definitive settlement may still be years away, this window of opportunity to make genuine progress and support sustainable regional peace must not be missed”.

    To listen to Lawrence Sheets, Crisis Group’s Caucasus Project Director, discussing the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh, please click here for the podcast.

  • WHAT DOES PROTOCOLS BRING TO TURKEY

    WHAT DOES PROTOCOLS BRING TO TURKEY

    A DISCUSSION: From: Ergun [[email protected]]

    Dear Orhan,

    It is unfair to characterize being agaisnt the protocls “no solution is good solution” approach.

    I have read both protocols and seen point-by-point analysis of it, have you?

    I have serious reservations on these two protocols.  Armenia brings nothing to the table to cause these protocls to be signed and gets a “kiss of life” from Turkey in return.  I feel Turkey is short-changed and out-smarted by the Armenians and/or pressured real hard by the real powers behind these protocols, namely the U.S. and the E.U.

    I am a businessman who believes in give-and-take.  Diplomacy and international relations are all give-and-take.  I feel like these protocls are give-and-give.  I do not see any “take” on the table, do you? (What you may think will happen in future is an “expectation”, that may or may not pan out, not a “take”.)

    Let’s do this mental exercise wioth you:

    Suppose the protocols are signed on October 10, 2009.

    The Turkish parliament  ratifies them, despite fierce opposition in and out of the parliament, six weeks after that.

    And the borders are opened two months after that.

    That’s the sequence of events described in the protocols.

    Technically, by February or March, Turkey-Armenia border can be opened with no tangible gain for Turkey.

    1- Is there any reason left as to why Armenia should take any step towards peace in Karabakh + 7 provinces after that point?

    2- Can Turkey dare to close the borders if Armenian insists on making no moves citing million reasons or excuses?

    3-  Would not Turkey be under even more pressure by the US, EU, and UN not to close the borders then?

    4- And if Turkey closes the borders anyway–like Turkey resisted international pressure on the Cyprus issue in 1974–would not Turkey be isolated further?

    5-  Aren’t we boxing ourselves into another TRNC situation here where Turkey looks like the cruel bully of a neighbor who takes sadistic pleasure in punishing the cute, little, poor, helpless kid next door, e.g. Armenia?

    6- Do you see any signs of toning down of the genocide rhetoric now, or coveting of Turkish lands, or changing Armenian constitution?

    7-  Why give so much upfront while receiving little more than empty promises in return?

    8-  What if we lose Azerbaijan because of this?  Who will fill the oil and gas pipelines on which so much of Turkey’s new policies of being the “new energy hub” depends?

    9-  Doesn’t this feel like the “soldier’s promise to Evren” by the American chief of staff, General Rogers, back in 1981 when Turkey removed its objection to Greece’s return to NATO?  Greece kept none of the promises since and our only capital in negotiations with Greece was wasted.  Our only capital in negotiations with Armenia is opening the border.  That is being wasted away on vague promises in a couple of loosely worded protocols.

    Dear Orhan, if I did such poor trades in my business, I would be bankrupt by now.

    I am not against dialog, negotiations, raproachment, and normalization.  But I believe, this just ain’t it.

    If Armenia vacated 5 of the 7 provinces immediately, for instance, and agreed to turn over security of the remaining 2 provinces along with that of Karabakh to UN security forces; and allowed the return their home of Azeri refugees, I could see signing of the first protocol.

    And if Armenia promised to remove reference to Western Armenia in its constitution (code for Eastern Anatolia,) agree to turn over the genocide claims to a joint historians’ committee, and stop coveting Turkish lands, I could agree to sign the second protocol.

    It is as simple as that.

    Last word:  I am not against normalization; I am against a poor business deal.

    Best regards,

    Ergune

    —–

    From: [email protected]


    Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:27 PM

    Dear Javid and Ergun,

    It is unfortunate that many Turkish Americans are reacting negatively to the protocols to be signed by the Turkish and Armenian governments.  I am no fan of the Erdogan government, but this is a right step long overdue.  We need to change the “no solution is a good solution” mentality.

    I know the path forward will be difficult.  There are many people who will be threatened by any reproach between Turkey and Armenia; Armenian diaspora comes to mind.  The Middle East is known for many conflicts that are never resolved.  I hope in a few years there will be one less problem and Turkey and Armenia will show the way.

    Both governments should be applauded for taking this giant but dangerous step.  I hope they will not be stuck in the past and will find a win-win solution.

    Orhan Gurbuz

    In a message dated 10/05/2009 11:46:09 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:

    Excellent comments Ergun bey.

    I have to say that I am disappointed by ATAA and TCA support for the protocols initiated in the Armenian Foreign Ministry. Especially in ATAA case, was the decision behind the official support letter based on the opinion of community conducted through an open poll?

    These documents would bring no benefits to Turkey in return to far bigger losses in regional foreign policy. From a moral standpoint, this is the first time in the history of Turkish Republic when a deal is concluded on enemy’s terms.

    Best,
    Javid

    2009/10/4 Ergun Kirlikovali <[email protected]>

    Dun Los Angeles Times ile yarim saatlik bir gorusme yaptik.  Bugun haberlerde cok kucuk bir kismi cikti.  Buna da sukur.

    Ergun KIRLIKOVALI


    Tentative deal between Armenia, Turkey brings opposition from both sides

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-oct-04-me-armenia-protest4-story.html

    Armenian Americans and Turkish Americans both say the governments in their homelands are giving too many concessions. A commission that would study the Armenian genocide is a sore point for some.

    Upset over an agreement that would establish diplomatic ties between Armenia and Turkey and reopen their common borders, members of the Los Angeles Armenian community plan to rally in Beverly Hills today.

    Organizers of the demonstration say they will call on Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan to refrain from signing protocols with Turkey that they believe would threaten Armenia’s interests and security.

    Sargsyan is scheduled to visit Los Angeles today.

    A deal that would essentially normalize relations between the long-estranged nations is expected to be signed this month. But the agreement faces opposition from both Armenian Americans and Turkish Americans, who argue that the governments in their homelands are making unreasonable concessions.

    “We’re not against normalization and peace with Turkey,” said Arek Santikian, a UCLA student and chairman of the Armenian Youth Federation of the Western United States. “We really would want peace. But we can’t have peace with preconditions.”

    Among the agreement’s provisions is the creation of a historical commission that would evaluate the bloody history between the two countries. The Armenian genocide of 1915 to 1918 claimed the lives of about 1.2 million Armenians under the Ottoman Empire, which became the modern republic of Turkey. The Turkish government disputes that a genocide took place.

    A historical commission would allow Turkey “to question the veracity of the genocide,” Santikian said. “We know that it happened. We can’t put a question mark on that.”

    Turkey disputes the number of those killed and argues that Armenians were equally brutal in slaying Turks when they revolted against their Ottoman rulers and aligned themselves with invading Russian troops.

    Armenian American critics of the agreement also argue that the protocols would allow Turkey to keep eastern territories they say are historically part of Armenia.

    They are also concerned about the future of Nagorno-Karabakh, a disputed enclave populated mainly by ethnic Armenians but within the borders of Azerbaijan, which has close ethnic and political ties with Turkey.

    “The protocols are not proportional,” said Caspar Jivalagian, a student at Southwestern Law School and an Armenian Youth Federation member. “It is a very pro-Turkish document.”

    But many Turkish Americans disagree.

    “Turkey is giving too much and getting too little in return,” said Ergun Kirlikovali, West Coast director of the Assembly of Turkish American Assns.

    Some believe the Turkish government is selling out Azerbaijan by reconciling with Armenia before the dispute over Nagorno-Karabakh has been settled. Others fear Turkey might be forced to give back land.

    Kirlikovali said Turks are also tired of being defamed by Armenians who were “constantly pushing a bogus genocide claim . . . and distorting and misrepresenting history.”

    He argued that a historical commission would allow experts to come to a “nonpolitical” verdict on the issue, and said that’s why Armenians were opposed to the creation of such a panel. It could debunk their main indictment against Turks, Kirlikovali said.

    Gunay Evinch, the assembly’s Washington, D.C.-based president and a Fulbright scholar, said that despite the concerns over the consequences of the accord between Turkey and Armenia, the agreement presented “a unique opportunity to move forward for these countries and their people, but not without risks.”

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    Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times

  • Protocols to be Signed and Ratified With Possible Reservations

    Protocols to be Signed and Ratified With Possible Reservations

    SASSUN-2
    The President of Armenia spent just 24 hours in Los Angeles on October 4, following brief visits to Paris and New York. Angry protesters greeted him in all three cities, accusing him of making unacceptable concessions in a pending agreement with Turkey.
    In a large conference hall in the Beverly Hilton hotel, Beverly Hills, around 60 community leaders were invited to exchange views with the President on the Armenia-Turkey Protocols. They had to first pass through metal-detectors to get into the hall.
    Meanwhile, thousands of demonstrators had gathered outside the hotel waving placards, demanding Pres. Sargsyan’s resignation, and chanting slogans that could be heard all the way inside the 8th floor conference room. A small plane could be seen hovering overhead, flying a large banner with the inscription — “No to Protocols.”
    After the President’s opening remarks, I was called upon to address the issues at hand. In welcoming the President to Los Angeles, I wondered why he had decided to consult with Diaspora Armenians, only after the negotiations with Turkey had been concluded and the Protocols already initialed. What was the purpose of this “consulting tour,” when Armenia and Turkey were just days away from signing the Protocols in Switzerland? If the visit was intended to appease the Diaspora, why was it not done earlier, before most Armenians went into a frenzy, causing chaotic scenes in Paris where demonstrators were violently dragged off by the French police to allow the President to lay a wreath at the feet of the Gomidas Statue?
    Tense confrontations do not lend themselves to calm and meaningful dialogue.
    I also questioned the wisdom of trying to reconcile with Armenia’s long-standing enemies, at a time when Armenians have great difficulty reconciling with each other. Rather than forming an Armenian-Turkish commission, there is a greater need for an intra-Armenian task force to reach a common understanding of their political demands, and agree on a proper division of labor between the Armenian government and Diasporan communities.
    I expressed the opinion that these Protocols were not only poorly negotiated, but also concluded under foreign pressure. Furthermore, contrary to the President’s protestations, the Protocols include several Turkish preconditions, such as acceptance of Turkey’s territorial integrity, and re-examination of the Genocide issue.
    While the Armenian side has negotiated in good faith, Turkish leaders have kept repeating their rejectionist refrain — as seen in Pres. Gul’s recent statement in Nakhichevan — that Turkey would not open its border with Armenia, until the Karabagh conflict is settled. What was the whole point of these negotiations and concessions, if Armenia’s border with Turkey would remain closed?
    Even if the Protocols are signed and ratified, and the border is opened, Armenia could still end up holding an empty bag, should Turkey, under some future pretext, close it down again. I asked Pres. Sargsyan if he would be prepared to add a reservation to the Protocols, stating that Armenia would nullify the agreement, should Turkey close the border again!
    I also expressed my agreement with the President’s concern — stated during an interview with the Armenian Reporter — that some of the provisions of the Protocols were bound to make the pursuit of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide even more challenging. I asked the President if it was wise to make the Armenian activists’ already difficult task of confronting the powerful Turkish state even more difficult!
    I concluded my remarks by urging the President not to rush into signing these flawed and detrimental Protocols. Why attempt to resolve through a single document, decades-long problems between Armenia and Turkey? A one-line document simply calling for the establishment of diplomatic relations and opening of the borders would have sufficed.
    I pointed out that the President’s acceptance of the Protocols, was forcing Armenians to pin their hopes on the possibility that Turkey itself would inadvertently end up safeguarding Armenia’s interests by refusing to ratify the agreement for its own reasons.
    In response to my remarks, Pres. Sargsyan expressed his willingness to accept my suggestion to add a reservation to the Protocols that would call for the repeal of the agreement, should Turkey ever decide to close the border, after opening it.
    In the course of the three-hour-long meeting during which very few of the 29 speakers supported the Protocols, Pres. Sargsyan insisted that he would never accept the re-examination of the facts of the Armenian Genocide by the historical sub-commission referred to in the Protocols. He stated that the main task of this sub-commission would be to discuss the steps necessary for the removal of the consequences of the Genocide. The President expected that the agreement would open new avenues to educate the Turkish public about the Armenian Genocide. He also categorically rejected the possibility of being pressured into making concessions on Artsakh!
    Given Pres. Sargsyan’s refusal to accept the re-examination of the Genocide and rejection of any concessions on Artsakh — two key Turkish demands — one wonders if members of the Turkish Parliament would ever agree to ratify these Protocols and open the border with Armenia!
    Pres. Sargsyan concluded the lengthy session by acknowledging that he himself has concerns about some aspects of the Protocols that have not been fully assessed! He stated that the Protocols could close the door on future demands from Turkey and may cause difficulties in resolving the Artsakh conflict. Similar concerns were also expressed by Arkady Ghoukassian, the former President of Artsakh, who was accompanying Pres. Sargsyan.
    Despite such misgivings, it was clear from the Pres. Sargsyan’s overall remarks that he did not entertain any revisions of the Protocols, and seemed fully intent on seeing them signed and ratified, possibly after adding some reservations.