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G. Çelebi’s reply to Jabarian on his article
Mr. Jabarian, August 19, 2010
Several years ago when I first called you “Geberyan” you took it properley as a joke and in your reply you addressed me: “Mr. Sen Geberyan”. After this we had maybe a few more correspondences. Then I asked you “please” not to send me any more Armenian news messages and your hateful remarks on Turkey. I erased your e-mail address from my computer and was happy not to receive any more messages from you for a long time. Then, just recently you started sending me messages again. I asked you again to stop it. All the same you kept doing it. Finally, I sent you my last message which you quoted frequently in your article. How is calling you “Geberyan” a treath to you, thousands of miles away from me in the US. You are not only an enemy of Turks but also a very immature (childish) and a notorious slanderer. You are such a slanderer that you put words in my mouth that I never said. Did I ever write you a word about Kurds or what the Turkish army did or did not do to them? Was not our discussion only about your claims of an Armenian Genocide and how we in Turkey perceive these tragic events. On this issue it would be better for you to correspond with “lucid individuals” you praised so much in your article and leave me alone.
What do I have to do with Abraham Foxman (whoever he is) and “Kurdistan Workers’ Party fighters being killed in Turkey by chemical weapons”? What do I have to do with “bioprepwatch.com”, “IsraelNationalNews.com”, “the German magazine Der Spiegel” and all the rest you tried to associate my name with? Are you trying to recuit allies to destroy or defame me?
Don’t you agree that “A contemporary state should of course be blind to ethnicity, religious belief, sex, gender or whatever other primitive descriptions of humanity there is.” Ataturk had done just that he tried to build a contemporary state and gained the admiration of millions of people throughout the world. Did you expect that statements like “‘Kemalism,’ the infamous movement created by its founder Mustafa Kemal, (is) an utter failure” would go unnoticed with no reaction?
You are right, I am a product not a “by-product of a Kemalist Turkey” but what do you know about what I think of Hrant Dink? I happen to think that he was a congenial and loyal citizen of this country and a good man. I wish you too had a similar personality. I felt terribly sorry when he was misteriously assasinated.
How is it that what you wrote in your article is “the truth”. It is your truth. How is it that my calling you “Geberyan” is to declare you “dead” while I know you are alive and well and delivering insults to me in statements like “A genocidal Turk remains genocidal” and accusing a whole nation for having committed a genocide. What are you expecting to gain from this demagorary?
Would my agreeing with you on your distorted ideas solve anything? Where in my reply to you did I “insult Turks who have integrity”? I was just stating my observations on the set of mind of those people.
How do you know that “.. unhindered occupation of (my) academic post at the Ege University continues to cloud (my) Turkish student’s future? Have you ever attended one of my classes? To begin with, I am a professor not of political or social sciences but of natural sciences and I never ever had the intention nor the opportunity to speak on political and social issue in my classess. The subject matter of my teaching were way too mind boggling to allow me leisurely speculate on politics (and for you to understand). My students never knew what my political or socail views are.
You suggested Mr. Erdogan’s government to retire individuals like me. Is this what they do in the US of which you are a citizen. Do you think this is what academic freedom is? Do presidents or politicians in the US retire academicians if they don’t like their ideas or at the request of certain fanatics? But I have good news for you: “I am already retired”.
Your article was a shame. Although much to my dissent the two of us corresponded in the past privately. But with your article you prooved your ill intentions by making our discussions public to just defame me. You even tried to harm me recuiting enemies against me. To say the least this is inhuman.
I don’t have a journal to manage or in which I can freely publish my views. In this respect too, you are in an unfair struggle with me. If you have a bit of conscience you will publish my response and then forget about me. I can not help you!
Finally, we have a saying in Turkish for cases like you: “Sizi Allah islah etsin!”.You probably understand it, if not I am sure you can have someone translate it for you.
G. Celebi
Izmir
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Response of Sukru Server Aya in armenianlife.com to Jabarian’s article
Gentlemen, Istanbul, 21.08.2010
Since I am a regular reader of the blog site, your article did not escape my attention. I am not in the habit of corresponding or commenting on the USUALLY NONSENSE – NON-KNOWLEDGE editorials of Messrs. Sassounian and Jabarian whom I understand that they must appeal to the California Armenian community and please their readers with their boastings or remarks. I know Prof. Gurbuz Celebi to be a neutral – modern minded world scholar who happens to be a Turkish citizen. I know nothing about his past intimate friendship with Mr. Jabarian, or their off-limits personal jokes or tail pulling. It looks like Mr. Jabarian gave some lectures as regards who are “bon-a-fide decent persons” in Turkiye and that spilled the glass of patience of Mr. Celebi, and Mr. Jabarian immediately grabbed those spilling drops to “brain-shower the public” in his column, which has been edited in your blog. I do not know the ages of the good looking Appo and Harut as two gentlemen, may not any older than my son who is 52 now and knows USA inside out. The problem with these young hard pushing editors is that they have not read even their own historians or official documents which will immediately prove that the GENOCIDE claim, is a physical impossibility – numbers fallacies etc. Apparently those “writers are no readers” and possibly have not read even one percent of the publications in your blog, which means they would have read at least 500 pages! I doubt if they read even 50 pages, and what they know about the Armenian Heroes, Andranik, Pastermadjian, butcher Dro, Lalaian, Katchaznuni, Nassibian plus a pile of official documents in English – that are not refutable. On your posting Aug.21, you have listed 19 book chapters I very recently sent you. Did they read any of it? Harut will say “We do not read what denalists write!”. You have that cheap attitude, used by every scholar to run and hideaway, because they do not hold even an inch of solid evidence to prove the allegations of fantasy. These things have been written so many times, I strongly suggest that writers and readers refer to my posting # 2399 “There is No Monster in the Attic” which stays clear!. So far NO ONE COULD PRESENT EVEN ONE WRONG with the references I lay and are published in this blog!
Until such time that I am introduced to such knowledgeable persons, I am compelled to stay out of arguments. Murphy law says “Never argue with stupid, the other people may not know the difference”! I have repeated my declaration several times and I repeat again: I am prepared to talk-debate-show documents to anyone in the whole world, whatever his status may be. You can fill up stadiums, have thousands of questions, the answers are all there given not by me but by official documents and/or Armenian-American- British officials. (I don’t use Turkish documents nor the colossal works of Justin McCarthy, or Stanford Shaw etc. whose house was set on fire in UCLA. Now a few remarks on Mr. Jabarian’s Attacks to: all-time-genocidal Turks! If he does not reply, he is an all time Liar- Editor and Palaver Slinger! I know too many decent Armenians; so I do not generalize!
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Aya’s replies (italics) paragraph by paragraph to Jabarian’s article (regular fonts):
My column of August 5 (Appo Jabarian), titled “Unlike Democracies, Turkey’s Constitution Defends the State against its own Citizens,” apparently has made a number of denialist Turks uncomfortable — if not annoyed. One such individual is Prof. Gurbuz Celebi of Ege University in Smyrna (now Izmir).
Are these remarks made as an American citizen or Armenian ARF member? You get angry to the joke of “geberian” but you use the nonsense insult “denialist” as free as “My Dear…”. What makes you an authority to argue on Turkish Constitution or domestic problems?Will the failures in Turkiye “become profit to Armenia or diaspora”?
Do you realize that you are disturbing the lives of many Turkish citizen Armenians or Armenians earning a hard living in this “country you debase”? What’s to you Sir? Why do you have to expose your bias with a childish example Smyrna-İzmir? Do you call New York, “New Amsterdam”? Can you see how you waste, your and our time?
In an August 6 letter to the editor, Prof. Celebi has shamelessly distorted my last name “Jabarian” into “Geberyan.” In Turkish “geber” means “die.”
In case a distortion is geared to ridiculing a person, then the targeted individual would seek appropriate remedy from the hurler of the insult. However in this case, the situation is much more serious than that. The Turkish word “geber” — used by the “good” professor, carries a threat and for that I hold him personally responsible.
If such letter was sent to you in privacy, why do you disclose it? If your column was posted on this blog and the “geberyan letter” was sent to BLOG, then we might have criticized Mr. Celebi for abusing the language of such forum. But if it was a “private personal letter”, it would not interest me any more than your house or outside life.
Incidentally for those who do not know it, in Turkish “Cebbar” has the meaning of STRONG but also RUTHLESS and TYRANT. For me “given names are not important, earned personality and respect is what counts in life.”
Instead of dealing fairly and squarely with the truth in my article, Mr. Celebi delivered a threat by declaring me “dead” in his opening paragraph: “Appo Geberyan! You are menace to humanity.” In my article, I had reported that in a July 23 article in Turkish Hurriyet Daily Newspaper, Mustafa Akyol had written: “When we, the Turkish majority, speak of a homogeneous ‘Turkish nation’ which includes all citizens of Turkey, we are wishful rather than factual.”
We have a saying, “Tell me who your friends are, I’ll tell you what kind of a man you are”! Mustafa Akyol, is a spoiled young and totally ignorant man on most subjects (like his father) but occupy good columns and TV posts with fat payments because they are “His Master’s Voice” who pays! I am surprised that Mr. Celebi, wasted his time on this “ballast” article.
I had also pointed out: “Akyol further dealt a serious blow to ‘Turkishness’ by declaring ‘Kemalism,’ the infamous movement created by its founder Mustafa Kemal, an utter failure. He stated: ‘Atatürk had actually used a transitional term in the early 20’s, a ‘nation of Turkey,’ but he quickly moved on to ‘Turkish nation,’ and, alas, even the ‘Turkish race.’ His belief was that with enough ‘education,’ and propaganda, the state would be able to transform the society into whatever it wills. Well, that dream obviously failed. The Kemalists often put the blame on the ‘treason’ of internal forces.”
Why Mr. Jabarian is so joyous to have someone insulting Mustafa Kemal or “Kemalism”? If Mustafa Akyol is a complete ignorant turncoat selling tail wagging, where does Mr. Jabarian fit or profit?
Visibly disturbed by Mr. Akyol’s statement and my remarks, Mr. Celebi threw on a temper-tantrum: “It is your and Mustafa Akyol’s own wishful thinking that ‘the last vestige of the Ottoman Turkish Empire finally started showing cracks in its internal firewall.’ … How dare you and your likes pronounce the word ‘Atatürk!’”
Mr. Celebi is wrong because he overlooked the fact that Mustafa Akyol, like his father, has no ethics or knowledge other than being a pipe blower. Ataturk is the “most sacred INTELLIGENCE of human ethics and personality”! For us, he is as sacred as Jesus is to most others!
Then he carried out his propaganda — jam-packed with academic lies, that he is used to delivering to his unwitting students at the university where he “teaches.”: “Turkishness is not an imaginary and elusive concept, anyone who says ‘I am a Turk’ is one! This is one thing Turks can teach Westerners (and of course bigots like yourself). A contemporary state should of course be blind to ethnicity, religious belief, sex, gender or whatever other primitive descriptions of humanity there is.”
Mr. Jabarian, occupies himself NOT with the problems or status in Armenia or USA but extends his Pinocchio nose all the way to Turkiye, as if he is a judge, arbiter, a friend or any party other than being a “trouble monger” becoming happy if neighbor’s house burns! Mr. Jabarian mixes us religion-ethnicity-humanity-sex in one stew pot. Replied in next paragraph.
Ironically people who exercise their right to better understanding and religious tolerance are despised by Mr. Celebi who is all too eager to insult Turks who have integrity: “But people with under-developed brains will commit themselves to religion (Mustafa Akyol for example is perhaps one who has surrendered his brain to the 1400 year-old ideas and practices of Mohammed. I know for sure his father has done so. Hence their hatred for Mustafa Kemal. But this pays good in Turkey. Mustafa Akyol his father and their likes are making fortunes in the state owned media (Radio and TV) for cursing at contemporary republican values in this country. They deny Darwin, they are living in the dark ages. But what is so funny is that they frequently use the word ‘democracy.’ For them even cannibalism would be OK if it is somebody’s belief. And this is just what they are doing: In many islamic countries they are eating WOMEN. So I suggest you find other allies in Turkey (if of course in addition to being a bigot – you are not also a man of the dark ages yourself.)”
Mr. Jabarian, again went off his limits of elementary knowledge by messing up with beliefs, tolerance and the rest of easy propaganda! I do not care if he goes to any church and how often but speaking of religious tolerance, should be the last thing he can speak, because I say:
In Turkiye we have more than 60 Armenian churches in full service. This means ONE church for 1000 persons! Do you have as many churches in Armenia say 2000 Churches? There may even be less than the number in Turkey!. In California there are about 300.000 Armenians; do you have 300 Armenian churches to match up with Turkiye! I think that you may not have even 30. And in Armenia how many Moslem mosques are there? NONE ! How many Muslıms live? NOT ONE!
Dear Mr. Jabarian, I am not for or against any religion and I take it as his personal preference belonging to him only, like his sex or other pleasures. But when you use such dogmas, you find yourself into nowhere, dark ages, dark holes or even Dante’s hell, which he had seen and wrote!
One can not help but see a link between Anti-Defamation League’s National Director Abraham Foxman’s bigotry towards Muslims in USA and Christians in Turkey, and Prof. Celebi’s intolerance towards Muslims and Christians of Turkey.
Again Mr. Jabarian, what is up to you about Foxman? You are slandering Celebi, he is not against any Muslim or Christian or Jew, he is just against (like me) serving this warped Joker Cards to appeal to simple minded persons. How many Jews you have left in Armenia? Let me tell you, last time they were only about 500, Muslims ZERO! You should have shown Mr. Foxman the book of Christopher John Bjerkens; remind him about the “Jewish Genocide of Armenian Christians”. They are all in chapter 21 of my book, and you can also show him the services of Drastamat to Hitler!
Wake up Sir, my book has been on the internet now nearly for three years! Not one could refute one paragraph! If you are a coward or afraid to learn the truth, please sing to yourself. If you want to learn, and know what you are speaking or writing about, you should read a 1000 for 1 page you write!
I wonder what Mr. Celebi has to say in defense of his “tolerant” Turkey which he claims to be “blind to ethnicity, religious belief, sex, gender or whatever other primitive descriptions of humanity there is,” when in fact secular-controlled Turkish army regularly gases its Kurdish minorities with deadly chemical weapons.
You first answer the above paragraph. Secondly you produce evidence that Turkish army used any gas against PKK. I am afraid you confused and forgot some 300.000 Kurds taking refuge in Turkiye at Halepce when Saddam had thrown gas bombs!
According to an August 13 report on bioprepwatch.com, German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that show Kurdistan Workers’ Party fighters killed in Turkey by chemical weapons. In that report IsraelNationalNews.com informed that the photographs “were published in the German magazine Der Spiegel earlier this week … given to a German human rights delegation by activists in March … depicted scorched and maimed body parts that were barely recognizable as human. Hans Bauman, a German photo forgery expert, confirmed the authenticity of the photos. … The eight dead PKK fighters are believed to have been killed in September of 2009. A forensics report released by the Hamburg University Hospital concluded that the eight Kurds were likely killed due to the use of chemical weapons.”
Speigel and Israel news? Let them come to me and let me show them everything for WW II, plus the scandalous court case of Talat pasha in 1920, where they did not even let General Sanders and Bronsart witness as the first hand German officers! Another respected Armenian friend had once written on this blog “chok karistirma, boku chikar”. He forgot his advice, he wrote me some memos, and he got the answers. Now it is your turn, if you are still willing to stir this mess, be sure you will hear the documented truth from me! There is still another proverb, which may be originally Armenian “iki ucu boklu degnek” (stick with shit on both ends). If you will claim that your end is clean, you will be sorry when you lay your hands on it! Want to try? Go ahead, or please shut-up!
It seems Prof. Celebi is the by-product of a Kemalist Turkey which “has always denied facts and never apologized for what it did,” as underlined Orhan Kemal Cengiz in an August 17 Today’s Zaman Turkish daily article titled “Hrant Dink, the Nazis and a state that never apologizes.”
“Today Zaman”, another correspondent of Armenian Courier! Orhan Kemal Cengiz? Another complete ignorant that does not even know that he is totally ignorant! “Nazis?” Read Chapter 21 of my book, refresh your memory and show me where I am wrong! “Hırant Dink”? Poor fellow he got shot by a fanatic Turkish idiot, because instead of speaking of blood Rh, he spoke of clean Armenian blood and dirty Turkish blood. 100.000 Turks protested this murder walking on streets. But I have lists and books on murders of over 42 Turkish diplomats in more than 250 acts of terror with leaders like Mourad Topalian! Did anyone protest at anytime any of the killings in USA or Armenia? Or do you give medals to killers as heroes? Who is to apologize from whom?
“Turkey’s position before the ECtHR has always been quite an extraordinary one. An exceptional procedure, fact-finding hearings, became the rule for Turkey. Applicants claimed their villages were burnt down, Turkey claimed this was done by the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK); an applicant claimed that she was raped in custody, Turkey said this person had never been taken into custody; the applicants claimed that their relative was killed while in custody, Turkey said this person had just escaped and joined the ranks of the PKK, and so on and so forth,” concluded Cengiz.
Cengiz is your type of PKK advocate, he writes to please and earn his bakshih. You are most welcome to join him and belly dance over cheap unproven slanders.
A genocidal Turk remains genocidal. Anytime a citizen of what is now Turkey, be it a righteous Turk, an autonomy-seeking Kurd, or a right-of-return seeking exiled grand child of a survivor of the Armenian Genocide, the Greek Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide raises a legitimate demand for justice, that individual is met with the word “geber” (“death”).
Now Mr. Jabarian, read my book and see that it was the Kurds who raided the moving columns did most of the fights with your revolutionaries humpabets! Now, I see that Armenians and Kurds forgot your throat cuttings and join hands with palavers of Genocide. Let me give you some advice, you “racist ignorant columnist, because you are so carried away that you call all Turks genocidal and inherit crime!” I hope that the reader will understand to what limits of total stupidity you are dragged by making such a racist statement, much too worse and general than “geberyan”. Listen Mr. Jabarian and answer the following questions on this blog. Don’t hide behind your columns throwing stones to the bush, answer clearly, read and learn if necessary:
a- Read in Posting 3144, that Turks offered Autonomy to ARF at Erzurum before the War but that ARF refused and preferred Russians. Logic: No person plans killing a partner he needs!
b- Pastermadjian gives plenty examples of his treachery or bravery. Armenians fought three wars from 1914 through 1920 against Turks, revoked the Peace Treaties an joined enemies each time.
c- To kill 1.5 million persons in 150 days “relocation period” you need to kill 10.000 every day,you must hand- dig stadium size graves every day and need 150 of such stadium graves!Not one has been found. Those found belong to killed Moslems. Read Posting #3116.
d- Read posting # 3143 for Official Numbers. If there were only 1.3 million Armenians in (1914) the Ottoman Empire, how can you kill 1.5 million and have a balance in 1921, as 1.4 million (US Senate), 1 million League of Nations, Paris Conference, 800.000 Lalaian and Nubar Pasha? Tell me which one is wrong! Read the posting, use your elementary school mathematics come up with the result.
e- Now get this thing straight Sir because I depend solely on documents: During the period 1914-1920 about 520.000 Muslims died in the hands of/or because of Armenians.
f- Only during the period 1918-1920 (Ararat Democratic – Dashnak Republic) 190.000 out of 1 million Armenians died in Armenia because of starvation and privations, epidemics, sheltering..
g- About 10.000 Armenians died in attacks on columns by Kurds (42 gendarmes died fighting Kurds), another 50.000 during transfer from homes to assigned camps. Another 250.000 Armenians out of about 750.000 relocated died of epidemics and starvation mainly imposed by British ports blockade.
h- “Refinements of killing” trophy goes to Armenian Revolutionist who devised inhuman experiments of killing. Turks, when “they could retaliate, simply killed the culprits” without any refinements!
Gross Total: 300.000 Armenians died in the period 1914 – 1921, 1914-1918 Turkish rule, 1918-1921 Allied occupation PLUS 200.000 died in Armenia in 2 years total approx. loss: 500.000 (my estimate)
Prof. Celebi’s unhindered occupation of his academic post at the Ege University continues to cloud “his” Turkish student’s future. If Erdogan government is genuine in its efforts to portray itself as a developing democracy, so that it succeeds in joining the EU, it must first free the coming Turkish generations from the yoke of Turkey’s genocidal dark past by retiring individuals like Celebi, and by paving the way for courageous and honest individuals in the Turkish society to further the internal debate on spiritual and moral atonement of Turkey through the selfless efforts of lucid individuals like Mustafa Akyol; Ahmet Altan, editor of the independent newspaper Taraf; Publisher Ragip Zarakolu; Writer Mehmet Guler; Orhan Pamuk; Ertugrul Kurkcu; Muharrem Erbey; Elif Shafak and many others.
Again Mr. Jabarian pokes his nose in matters that should not be his concern and recommends us a list of turncoats, some of which were leftist convicts now becoming capitalist pipe blowers. They are quite far away from “decency, intelligence and knowledge”. You put them all in one sack, shake them they would not even ever heard of a “humpabet or panchonnie” and I doubt Sir, if you really know what “potorig” stands for in the Armenian history.
Tell all these big mouth “lazy – self appraised” scholars or writers, that there is an old man with his book and columns in the internet for years, trying to discover the TRUTH behind this CHARLATANISM who makes certain persons rich. TRUTH defenders like me or this blog, never gets a penny…but we make ourselves “accepted whether you like it or not”. If you do not have original pyramidal documents, don’t give us all the “Yankee –doodle – dandy ”talks!. We are fed up and are too old to swallow palavers and cheap vocabulary such as “genocidal”, “denialist” and the rest of the trash…
I am not writing on Harut Sasounian, because he does not read anything. He has a profession and he deserves his earning by writing NOT THE TRUTH but WHAT PLEASES HIS READERS! My disclosures are open to all including the Turkish belly-money dancers!
Executive Publisher / Managing Editor
Sukru S. Aya
