Turkey’s Response to Swiss Minaret Ban

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22 responses to “Turkey’s Response to Swiss Minaret Ban”

1. 

   haluk

   December 3, 2009

   Legal questions raised following minaret vote
   http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/front.html?siteSect=105&ty=st&ref=fb&sid=11571627
2. 

   haluk

   December 3, 2009

   Turkey’s Erdogan Says Minaret Ban is Sign of Fascism
   http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,664641,00.html
3. 

   haluk

   December 3, 2009

   “…an expression of intolerance and I detest intolerance.”
   –Bernard Kouchner, the French foreign minister

   “It’s an expression of quite a bit of prejudice and maybe even fear, but it is clear that it is a negative signal in every way, there’s no doubt about it. … Normally Sweden and other countries have city planners that decide this kind of issue. To decide this kind of issue in a referendum seems very strange to me.”
   –Carl Bildt, Swedish Foreign Minister

   “…grotesquely discriminatory…”
   –Amnesty International
4. 

   haluk

   December 3, 2009

   “This is not the first time a Swiss popular vote has been used to promote religious intolerance. A century ago, a Swiss referendum banned Jewish ritual slaughter in an attempt to drive out its Jewish population. We share the FSJC’s [The Federation of Swiss Jewish Communities] stated concern that those who initiated the anti-minaret campaign could try to further erode religious freedom through similar means.”
   –The Jewish Anti-Defamation League
5. 

   jda

   December 7, 2009

   Turkey professes concern about the free exercise of religion for Moslems in Switzerland as she limits such freedom to the Greek Orthodox, Assyrian Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox within her own borders. While complaints about the Minaret height limit, or the presence of them outright is sympathetic, one can hardly help frpm noticing the destruction of Christian sites in Turkey as well as the abject failure of Turks even to tell tourists in the east about these sites in their phony Nazi-level museums.
6. 

   John Marcos

   December 8, 2009

   Jda the rat,
   Fistly you have to look at the greek Intolernace before you look at this matter. There are two million muslims living in greece, there is not even one open mosque
7. 

   jda

   December 8, 2009

   Imelda,

   Are you saying that the Turkish government should destroy Armenian, greek and Assyrian churches standing for hundreds or thousands of years in Anatolia because there are no Mosques in Greece?

   The situations are not parallel. You reason like a stroke victim.
8. 

   Leyla

   December 9, 2009

   JDA, you cannot be serious! How can a country where the majority of the population is Muslim have the head of the Greek Orthodox Church with full rights in it? This is most absurd! People of other religions have ALWAYS had full rights in Turkish lands. How many Muslims live in Armenia, how many mosques are there in Armenia? I can tell you, there is one very sad mosque in Armenia where the imam is terrified to open it to service. I am sure if anyone has enough guts to go to prayers will most likely not have much of a life left after that. What about the Turks living in Greece? Their imams are chosen by the Greeks! Where is the religious freedom in that?

   Talking about destruction of Christian sites! How many mosques are left in Greece or Armenia? I hate to say this but the Christians are the worst when it comes to destruction and desecration of religious sites. There were many religions before Christianity. Where are their sites? There will be none because the Christians made sure that they were all destroyed.

   Why don’t you get some lessons on history before you talk? It would also be a good idea for you to read up on what is happening now too. It looks like you are in some dreamland of your own making.
9. 

   John Marcos

   December 9, 2009

   Just to add that Greek intolerance still continues with all mosques are still closed, where as in Turkey Christians are free to go to church to do their pilgrimage, even do they are little minority, there are more than five hundred churches in service.
10. 

    Hally

    December 9, 2009

    JDA writes: “You reason like a stroke victim.”

    Displaying some more of your Armenian Orthodox Christian values, eh?

    How ironic would it be, if either you or a member of your family becomes a stroke victim. Now that would be what they call “poetic justice.”
11. 

    jda

    December 9, 2009

    Leyla,

    Your thinking is comical.

    First, a Mosque sits in downtown Yerevan, where services are held every Friday.

    More fundamentally, the alleged oppression of Greek citizens who are Muslim does not give the Turkish state the right to oppress its own Christian citizens, who have no say over Greek politics or practices. But we understand that the Turkish state always likes to have a few Christian citizens on hand for window-dressing and hostage-taking.

    Your facile assertion that Christians in Turkey have religious freedom is risible. To take only three recent examples: your deep state threatened to kill both Patriarchs to discredit Turkey and damage its eu accession chances; Turkey closed the only monastery where Greek Orthodox priests can be trained, meanng that eventualy there will be no Patriarch, as the state will only allow a Turkish citizen to become one; the state has seized dozens of properties held by CHRISTIAN churches, most notably the summer camp where Hrant Dink and Rakael Dink met as children.

    Keeping ancient Christian sites in Cappadocia open to milk the tourist trade is not the same thing as promoting religious freedom.
12. 

    Robert

    December 11, 2009

    JDA=The RAT,

    Gee RAT, you actually took time out to gravitate out from your usual place of haunt…the sewers. You speak as if you actually think that you know something. What a laugh! Are you a maschocist who loves to be humiliated?

    You know nothing about “religious freedoms” in Armenia!!! How many Turks live there? Armenia has a 98% purity rate! Were you aware of that? And that Mosque that you refer to in downtown Yerevan (the one that has services every Friday), the services are very limited and controled, with few attendees. I had a friend who was there last year and reported that there were “special police” (more like the Gestapo) that watch anyone who goes in and out, taking photos and making notes. Your beloved Armenia is one of the most religiously oppressed nations on the planet (in addition to being one of the most corrupt). For your edification, the dashnak party fully controls the orthodox churches in Armenia. If an Armenian wanted to become, let’s say, a Catholic, he would be excommunicated on the spot! Why is there an average of 6,000 Armenians every month trying to leave the country by getting VISA’s to anywhere? And where do many of them end up and make their new home? Either the US or Turkey!! So before you shoot off your mouth, on the pretense that you know something, read and learn. That way, you’ll make a fool of yourself a little less often (everyone sees you as a clown anyway)!
13. 

    jda

    December 12, 2009

    Robert,

    Your angry brainfarts really should be kept under control. Reading and thinking through the sclerosos might help you.

    The idea that Roman Catholics are opressed in Armenia will probably come as a shock to Pope Benedikt, and would have been a shock to his predecessor, who visited Armenia in 2004, and who was lovingly received by the Catholicos and everyone else, other than a few grumpy Russian Orthodox old believer villages. The Roman Church’s Armenian Rite Eastern Headquarters is located in Gyumri, by the way, and it administers the spritual life of over 500k Armenian Rite believers.

    If someone wishes to resign from the Apostolic Church, they face no hardship; recall that many Armenians are atheists, as a result of 70 glorious years of Communism. The ratio is worse in Turkic countries, by the way.

    The same cannot be said for Turks who seek to become christian; they face abuse if not death at the hands of their families and communitiies. Your newspapers constantly trumpet supposed christian threats against Turkey. Do you recall the fate of father Santoro, killed in front of his church, as well as the other two Catholic priests who were assaulted and threatened? or how about the three Evangelicals who were tortured to death in malatya by your nationlist brethren.

    One recalls that the five nationalist murderers ransacked their own homes for big absorbent towels to bring to the murder scene, all the better to sop up the rivers of blood they intended to loose.

    One also remembers the notes they caried to the scene, in anticipation of their arrests, which said:

    ‘I did it for my country”.
14. 

    Robert

    December 13, 2009

    JDA=The RAT,

    Sorry, but you are still unaware about reality! First of all, read closely what I wrote…I said “let’s say, a Catholic” as an example. And YES, if an orthodox Armenian wanted to convert to something else, he WOULD in fact be EXCOMMUNICATED by the dashnak-run orthodox church!! That’s known as religious oppression and is well documented in Armenia! And Turks can become any religion they wich to be there! Whether their families may like it is a matter between those families, but they are free to do so if they wish. As usual, you facts are skewed something awful due to the BS info you obviously receive from your dashnak buddies and fellow hate-mongers on a continuous basis!

    You bring up five criminals in Turkey (unfortuately there are fanatics in EVERY country), yet you run away (as usual) from the fact of the hundreds maimed and killed by your beloved dashnak Armenian terrorist groups! If these “five” in Turkey were to be captured, they’d be tried and convicted for the criminals that they are (no system is perfect, but at least we try), unlike being glorified and hero-worshipped as ASALA and all the other dashnak Armenian terrorists murderes were by your brethren (and possibly even by you)! And, as the typical cowardly dashnak Armo that you are (just like your fellow dashnaks), you run away yet again from questions and facts presented to you, so that you may actually learn something other than that brainwashing hogwash that you’ve been exposed to since your childhood days at the AYF Hitler Arryan Youth Camps!!

    So do us all a favor and keep your petty “knowledge” of questionable information from dubious sources to yourself. This is a site for scholarlly discussions by people who know what they’re talking about. That disqualifies and eliminates you from the start! Though all are welcome here, you really should just stick to your biased and self-rightous dashnak hate sites and bask in the continuous BS and hate generated there! One wonders which personna you’ll show up as next here.
15. 

    jda

    December 13, 2009

    Robert,

    You seem to have a new less fluent way of writing. Or maybe you have stopped asking an actual English speaker to turn your drivel into more fluent nonsense.

    First, the Armenian Church does not excommunicate people. And, if we follow your example, someone voluntarily becoming a communicant in another faith would not be harmed by excommunication from a faith he had abandoned anyway.

    Second, the idea that the Church is controlled by the Dashnagzagan party is wholly laughable. In communist days, the Tashnagzagans repudiated the church due to the influence as well as state control exerted by the Communist party.

    If you believe the Church is controlled by the party, please explain why the Catholicos as well as the Dioceses in North America support the protocols while the Party bitterly opposes them.

    The murderers of the Evangelicals were captured. Do you not know that?

    While every country has criminals, only Turkey and Pakistan have shadow governments whose semi-official nationalists kill Christians with impunity and the tacit support of large parts of the population.

    The issue is that Turkey is oppresive to Christians who live there, and is not in a position to complain about the Minaret ban in Switzerland.
16. 

    Robert

    December 14, 2009

    JDA=The RAT,

    You just made my point for me! The murderers were captured! They WILL be brought to trial and probably convicted on all counts (Turkey no longer has the death penalty). Now, as I said in my previous post, compare that to how dashnak Armenians “treated” their murderous terrorists…they turned them into heroes and glorified their actions! Go ahead and deny it, if you dare!

    As for the religious oppression in Armenia…Please refer to The U.S. Department of State Annual Report on Iternational Religious Freedom, 1999 – Armenia! Here are some exerpts:

    “The constitution of Armenia grants the Armenian Church official status as the national church. In 1991 the Armenian government passed a law that stregthened the position of the Armenian church even more. The law directs the government’s Council on Religious Affairs to investigate the activities of the representatives of registered religious organizations and missionaries who engage in activities contrary to their status.”

    “The Armenian Gregorian Church is not subject to restrictions on religious freedom imposed on church members of other faiths. In particular, the 1991 law forbids “proselytizing” (undifined by law), except by the Armenian Church and requires all other religious denominations and organizations to register with the State Council on Religious Affairs.”

    “In 1997 the Armenians changed their laws to tighten registration requirements by raising the minimum numbers of adult members required to qualify for registration from fifty to two hundred. The law also bans foreign funding for foreign-based churches and mandates that religious organizations other than the Gregorian Church must secure permission from the State Council on Religious Affairs to engage in religious activities in public places, travel abroad, or invite foreign guests into the country.”

    In the book “A Myth of Terror” by Erich Feigl (pg. 47), 1998 [Edition Zeitgeschichte Freilassing, Salzburg, Austria], there is an excerpt which reads as follows:

    “In the church of the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate, with the cutains drawn and the alter covered, the patriarch read an excommunication order against the Armenians who had converted to Protestantism. They were accused of – and threatened with – every kind of evil in the world. Afterwards, the excommunication edict was read in all the Armenian Orthodox churches in the land under the same kind of theatrical circumstances. The Protestant Armenians had now been stripped of all their rights.”

    Try reading and learning something one of these days!!
17. 

    jda

    December 16, 2009

    Another day, another dumb post by Robert, Ergun protege.

    Robbie, the excerpt from Feigl’s book refers to excommunications made between 1840 and 1860. All the eastern Churches, as well as the Rebbis in Jerusalem issued similar edicts. They all felt threatened by Protestant Missionary work.

    The hypocrisy of Turkey’s stand on the Swiss measure has nothing to do with Armenia, but I understand that at the Acme school of argument, from which you matriculated right next to the Coyote, Professor Ergun requires all students to attack Armenians and Tasnags in every post, no matter the context or issue.

    Returning to the theme of this string, the issue is religious freedom in Turkey. I suggest you read about Halki, or the details about how the local turkish government would not even allow two of the murdered Malatya Christians to be buried in Turkey. or read aout the pending 301 prosecution of Turkish christian Topol if you think that being christian is an easy thing for a Turkish citizen to be.

    Let’s try an experiment. I will gladly pay the expenses.

    You open an Evangelical Church in malata or trabzon, and identify yourself as a Christian lay worker.

    You invite people to come to services, or merely attend them yourself.

    We’ll see how long you last.

    I will pay for ads in the local paper advertising that people may cometo hear christian good news frm you. I wilpay for the church.

    We’ll see how long you last before one of you nationalist brethren brings some nice new super absorbent towels to your home along with some nice newly sharpened Heinkls to welcome you to the neighborhood.
18. 

    Robert

    December 17, 2009

    JDA=The RAT,

    The reprint of the book that I have is 1998! It was true then, it’s even more true now!! As for the remainder of my post, as usual, you run away from it! Go ahead any deny that there’s no religious oppression in Armenia! As for your example, you’re confusing Turkey with Armenia…AGAIN!

    I found your new personna on ASBAREZA (the internet Armenian rag). You now use the handle “Stuck in the mud” I believe is the correct version. Too bad none of those Armenian sites keep posts from anyone other than dashnaks. That’s known as censorship! You notice that all of your idiotic posts are not deleted, whereas anything written by anyone else doesn’t stand a chance. What does that tell you?

    You can keep your money. You’ll need it to grease more political figures in congress so that they fall for that century-old con job by you dashnaks! You’re too fixated on what five criminals have done, and as is typical of Armenians, you take everything out of context, blow it up way out of proportion, and then try to paint Turkey as some backwater, corrupt, religiously oppressed country like…oh yeah, ARMENIA!! Nice try, but everyone has gotten rather tired of the pitiful attempts of you dashnaks at denegrading another nation and her people! People who live in glass houses…
19. 

    Hally

    December 17, 2009

    JDA – Here’s an idea.

    You go to Armenia and identify yourself as a Turk.

    Then, claim that the events of WWI were the result of a civil war and not genocide and that Armenians also massacred Turks.

    See how long you last in that bastion of free speech and ideas where the people are not taught to hate citizens of their neighboring country.

    Hasta!
20. 

    jda

    December 17, 2009

    Robert,

    Yes, Feigl’s book was published in 1998, but the section you paraphrase concerns events in 1860. Can you discern how this works? When Gibbon wrote about the Roman Empire, he was actually an 18th Century Englishman, not a First Century Roman. Got it? I think you’ll understand history books much more clearly now.

    Hally,

    The issue is religious freedom in Turkey, and one notes that neither you nor the tiny terror Robert have answered the specific charges concerning Halki, etc. Instead, you simply repeat the Turkish Nazi Argument One [blame Armenia] or Two [blame the Tasnags].

    By the way, I am not the poster Stuck in the Mud; after all, I am not the only American who has noted his Nazi ravings, or your parroting of same.

    I am happy to pretend to be a genocide-denying Turk in Armenia if you will be a Christian in Malatya or Trabzon. Let me know when we go.
21. 

    Robert

    December 17, 2009

    JDA=The RAT,

    You still keep missing the point! Whether it was 1860, religious oppression in Armenia was true then, it’s true today, and it will be true tomorrow! You know that you can’t deny it! You keep trying to circumnavigate this point by directing focus instead to areas in Turkey were there may very well have been criminal threats and/or actions. You base your entire assumption and argument on the actions of a few fanatics (which could be found in every country in the world). This doesn’t mean that everyone living there is of the same mindset!! Quite the opposite.

    As for my comment that your were Stuck in the Mud, my apollogies. It’s just that we’re all so used to you coming around using different handles (and this poster did resemble your style), that an honest mistake was bound to happen eventually. If you’d simply stick to just being you, instead of several others, then this error could have easily been avoided. However, at least we’re on the same page in regards to this individual’s Nazi rantings. And I don’t promote Nazi activities! Don’t even go there!!

    As for your offer to Hally, I’d do it! I know that I’d survive pretending to be a Christian in Turkey! However, I also know that the odds of me getting out alive, or in one piece, out of Armenia after publically denying the alledged “genocide” (even if I were to provide them with reams of documents proving the case), would be slim or none (and Slim left town!)!!
22. 

    Hally

    December 18, 2009

    Dear Thick-Headed JDA,

    Clearly irony, sarcasm, intellect are not your forte. So let me spell it out for you. The primary point is that you are a hypocrite and know not of what you speak. Tell us, when was the last time you were in Malatya or Trabzon?

    I’ve no problem pretending to be a Christian in Trabzon. By my looks, most in Turkey presume that I’m Russian or German, i.e., Christian, anyway. And the last time I was in Trabzon, and was there for a week, I had no issues. In fact, I was welcomed and treated very well, especially when I chose only to speak in English and not reveal I was from there.

    Cheerio.

    PS – Religious freedom, hahahaHA!! Erivan’s majority population before WWI was Muslim, now there’s one mosque in all of Armenia that’s used as a museum, while all the others have disappeared.

    How many descendants of those Muslims remain in Armenia 90 years later? Tell us, we’re all ears.

    The word is HYPOCRITE– look it up.