TIMELY RESPONCE TO CANADIAN UNIVERSITY

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SUBJECT: https://www.turkishnews.com/en/content/2009/06/02/canada-ryerson-apologizes-for-ataov-event/

To:  Sheldon Levy, President and Vice-Chancellor, pres@ryerson.ca

Cc:  Kanizehn Wadia, Executive Secretary to the President, kwadia@ryerson.ca
Erin McGinn, Director, Office of the President, emcginn@ryerson.ca
Carrie-Ann Bissonnette, Special Assistant, Events & Special Projects, c2bisson@ryerson.ca
Alan Shepard, Provost and Vice President Academic – alan.shepard@ryerson.ca
Dr. Heather Lane Vetere, Vice Provost, Students  – hlvetere@ryerson.ca
Terry Gillin, Dean of sociology,  tgillin@ryerson.ca
Mustafa Koc, Professor,   Sociology Department, mkoc@soc.ryerson.ca

June 3, 2009

Re:  Intolerance to reasoned, scholarly debate

Dear President Levy:

I am responding to the apology you issued to the Armenian students for the scholarly seminar organized by the Turkish students at Ryerson University on February 18, 2009, featuring Professor Turkkaya Ataov, a researcher who authored of more than 80 books.  I found your apology  biased, unfair, and unscholarly. Here are my reasons and thoughts:

BIAS IN THE TERM “ARMENIAN GENOCIDE”

If one cherishes values like fairness, objectivity, truth, and honesty, then one should really use the term  “Turkish-Armenian conflict”.  Reducing this complex human tragedy that affected all the people of the area down to  “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide” simply shows one’s anti-Turkish bias.  The question should be re-phrased “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?”

Turks document it clearly that it was an inter communal warfare mostly fought by Turkish and Armenian irregulars, a civil war which is engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenian revolutionaries, with active support from Russia, England, France, and other countries, as well as Western media and missionaries, all interested in the vast resources of the collapsing Ottoman Empire for different reasons and to varying degrees, against a backdrop of a raging world war.

Armenians, on the other hand, ignoring Armenian agitation, raids, rebellions, terrorism, treason, territorial demands, and Turkish victims killed by Armenians, claim that it was a one way genocide, a claim never tested at a court of law but mostly based on hearsay and forgeries.

GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS IGNORE “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”

While some in unsuspecting public may be forgiven for taking the blatant and ceaseless Armenian propaganda at face value and believing Armenian falsifications merely because they are repeated so often, it is difficult and painful for someone like me, the son of Turkish survivors on both maternal and paternal sides, whose story is hardly ever heard due to censorship induced by Armenian pressure groups.

Those seemingly endless “War years” of 1912-1922 brought three separate but consecutive wars on Ottoman soil  (The Balkans, WWI, and the Independence Wars) and wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left touched, mine certainly included. Those nameless, faceless Turkish victims are killed for a second time today with politically motivated and baseless charges of Armenian genocide.  Those wars were brought onto Turks, not vice-versa, fought on Turkish soil, not in England, France, or Russia, and Turks were only defending their home, not out for conquest.

ALLEGATIONS OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE ARE RACIST AND  DISHONEST  HISTORY

They are racist because they ignore the Turkish dead: about 3 million during WWI; more than half a million of them at the hands of Armenian nationalists.

And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss

THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT:

1) TUMULT (as in numerous Armenian armed uprisings, 1878-1921)

2) TERRORISM (by well-armed Armenian nationalists and militias victimizing Ottoman-Muslims, 1882-1922)

3) TREASON (Armenians joining the invading enemy armies, 1914-1921)

4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS (where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia, the would-be first apartheid of the 20th Century with a Christian minority ruling over a Muslim majority, 1878- present )

5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES (i.e. those caused by the Armenian nationalists: 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, met their tragic end at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries during WWI, documented by the Turkish Historical Society. This figure is not to be confused with about 2.5 million Muslim dead who lost their lives due to non-Armenian causes during WWI.)

6) TERESET (temporary resettlement) triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.)

VERDICT WITHOUT DUE PROCESS AMOUNTS TO LYNCHING

Those who take the Armenian “allegations” of genocide at face value seem to also ignore the following:

1- Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention (Like all proper laws, it is not retroactive to 1915.)

2- Genocide verdict can only be given by a “competent court” after “due process” where both sides are properly represented and evidence mutually cross examined.

3-  For a genocide verdict, the accusers must prove “intent” at a competent court and after due process.  This could never be done by the Armenians whose evidence mostly fall into five major categories:  hearsay,  mis-representations, exaggerations, forgeries, and “other”.

4- Such a “competent court” was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist  (save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul in 1920 where partisanship, vendettas, and revenge motives left no room for due process.)

5-  Genocide claim is political, not historical or factual.  It reflects bias against Turks. Therefore, the  term genocide must be used with the qualifier “alleged”, for scholarly objectivity and truth.

POLITICAL  LYNCHING OF THE TURKS BY ARMENIANS TODAY

Recognizing Armenian claim as genocide, therefore, will deeply insult Turkish-Canadians and Turks around the globe and poison the otherwise excellent relations currently enjoyed between the Canada and Turkey.  It will, no doubt, please Armenians but disappoint, insult, and outrage Turkey,  one of Canada’s closest allies and a partner in NATO. Turks stood shoulder to shoulder with Canadians in Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and more.   Genocide charge, unproven and unjustified, is the worst insult that can be dished out to an entire nation and a democracy respecting human rights, not to mention a close friend, an staunch ally , and a reliable partner in a troubled part of the world.

History is not a matter of ” gut feelings, thoughts, beliefs, conviction, consensus,  political resolutions, or propaganda.”  History is a matter of unbiased research, honest peer review, thoughtful debate, and meticulous scholarship. Even historians, by the U.N. definition, cannot decide on a genocide verdict, which is a special task reserved for a “competent court” with its legal expertise and due process.

What we witness today amounts to lynching of the Turks by Armenians to satisfy the age old Armenian hate, bias, and bigotry.   Values like fairness, presumption of innocence until proven guilty, objectivity, balance, honesty, and freedom of speech are stumped under the fanatic Armenian feet.

Those who claim genocide verdict today, based on the much discredited Armenian evidence, are actually engaging in “conviction and execution without due process”.  Last time I checked with the dictionary, that was the definition of “lynching”.

Isn’t it about time to stop fighting the First World War after almost a century and give peace a real chance?

Perhaps an even better question is, isn’t it time to allow the historians, researchers, and scholars to take over this debate?

The capability to explore and discuss contentious issues in a rational, scholarly manner is one of the trademarks that makes a University community a stimulating and exciting place.  Your apology to Armenian students, implying that the Turkish-Armenian controversy should be represented like settled history in line with untested, unproven Armenian allegations,  deals a blow to academic freedom and freedom of speech, thus vibrancy of a university.

After all, what good is a university if reasoned, scholarly debate is not allowed?

Peace,

ergun_s1

ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI

Turkish Forum Advisory Board Member

Son of Turkish Survivors from Both Maternal & Paternal Side

www.turkishforum.com

www.turkla.com

www.ethocide.com

0000000000000000000000000000

CANADA: Ryerson Apologizes for Ataov Event

Ryerson Apologizes for Ataov Event and Reaffirms its commitment to uphold the Truth
Toronto, Ontario; On February 18, 2009, The Department of Sociology at Ryerson University, and the Federation of Canadian Turkish Associations organized an evening lecture on campus titled “Elaborations on Turkish strategies to dealing with issues around Armenian Allegations and beyond”. The lecture was delivered by Professor Turkkaya Ataov, a leading denier of the Armenian Genocide. The lecture was equivalent to Neo-Nazi propaganda presented to deny the Jewish Holocaust. Prof. Ataov trivialized the reality of the Armenian Genocide and presented the usual Turkish Government’s views.Ryerson University’s student body was outraged by the fact that such an event had been cosponsored by a department of their university and raised concerns through letters and by signing petitions which included names of approximately 300 Ryerson students.

After several meetings with department heads and administration, Dr. Sheldon Levy, the president of Ryerson University, in a letter to Sally Sahagian, the president of the Armenian Students’ Association at Ryerson University, apologized to the Ryerson community by stating, “On behalf of Ryerson University, I would like to apologize for the pain and suffering experienced in particular by the members of the Armenian.

Community as a result of this event” He then assured the student body that the university’s views were in line with that of the Canadian Government, the International Association of Genocide Scholars and the hundreds of historians and experts researching the topic internationally. Dr. Levy stated, “Ryerson University supports Prime Minster Harper’s statement on behalf of all Canadians that the Armenian Genocide is a historical fact, unquestionably part of the historical record with tremendous suffering.”

Ryerson University’s response indicated that although the university is a space where students can practice their freedom of speech, the university will not become an accomplice to racism and genocide denial. This form of hate propaganda has no place in our academic and scholarly circles.

The administration of Ryerson University, through its principled stand, has proven to remain true to the role of the university as an institution committed to upholding the truth. The Armenian Students’ Association at Ryerson University together with all its members and the Armenian Community at large would like to thank the Ryerson University administration for identifying genocide denial as a threat to academia and society at large, consequently taking a principled stand against the crime of genocide.

For more info, please contact Sally Sahagian – ssahagian@gmail.com.

29 May 2009 by Press Office

In America, there are “equal access”  and “”equal time” laws governing libelous attacks in public.  I am sure similar laws are in the books in Canada, too. The first step should be a firm, informative, fair, polite, but demanding letter, worded by a lawyer (or law firm) specializing in freedom of speech issues in Canada should be sent.  This should be done immediately (within the next several days) to set the stage.

According to their answers, the next step can be designed accordingly.

TALDF can help with wording.

Ergun KIRLIKOVALI

TURKISH FORUM

 

erdalatrek

 
   

Dear David and friends,

If you were to click on the html “pressoffice” at the bottom of Sally Sahagian’s disgusting “press release” you would see the email address:

pressoffice@armenianchurch.ca

While Sahagian gives her email address as ssahagian@gmail.com, it is obvious that the “press release” is an Armenian Church of Canada product.

Perhaps TALDF can seize this opportunity to deliver where it will truly count and weigh the genocide-mongers down.

Regards,


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23 responses to “TIMELY RESPONCE TO CANADIAN UNIVERSITY”

  1. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    ***
    We are few but we are called Armenians
    We do not put ourselves above anyone
    Simply we also admit that we, only we have Mount Ararat
    And that it is right here on the clear Sevan
    that the sky could make its exact duplicate
    Simply David has indeed fought right here
    Simply the Narek was written right here
    Simply we know how to build from the rock, a monastery
    How to make fish from stone, how to make man from clay
    To learn to become the student of the beautiful,
    the kind, the noble, and the good

    We are few, but we are called Armenians
    We do not put ourselves above anyone
    Simply our fortune has just been so different
    Simply we have just shed too much blood
    Simply in our lives of centuries long
    When we were many and when we were strong
    Even then we did not oppress any nation
    See, centuries have come and centuries have passed
    Yet over no one have we become tyrants
    If we have enslaved, only with our eyes
    And if we have ruled, only with our books
    If we have prevailed, only with our talents
    And if we have ever oppressed,
    it has only been with our wounds

    Simply with us death had fallen in love
    Yet we willingly did not give ourselves
    And when we were forced to leave our own land
    Where ever we reached, where ever we went
    Everywhere we left indelible trace
    We have joined efforts for everyone, always
    We plowed everywhere, we built bridges, we tied arches
    We plowed everywhere and we brought forth crops
    We gave everyone mind, proverbs, and songs
    Another words we defended them from spiritual coldness
    Every where we left our eyes reflection
    A peace of our soul and a sacrament from the heart itself

    We are few, truly, but we are Armenians
    And by being few we do not succumb
    Because it is better to be few in life, then to control life by being many
    Because it is better rather to be few, then to be masters by being many
    Because it is better to be few, then to be swindlers
    We are few, yes, but we are Armenians
    And we know how to sigh from yet unhealed wounds
    But with a new juice we rejoice and we cheer
    We know how to thrust into the foe’s side
    And how to lend a helping hand to our friend
    How to repay goodness which was done to us
    by compensating for each one by ten
    And the benefit of it just in the sun
    We vote with our lives, not only with our hands
    Yet if they desire to rule us with force
    We know how to smoke and how to quench their fire
    And if it is needed to disperse darkness
    we can turn into ashes like burning candles
    And we know as well how to make love with lust
    And we do this always by respecting others
    See we do not put ourselves above anyone,
    but we know ourselves We are called Armenians
    And why should we not feel pride about that
    We are, We shall be, and become many.
    !!!

  2. Sona Avatar
    Sona

    You talk about “freedom of speech”???

    Oh, my God.

    Article 301 – is it yours????

    Where is Orhan Pamuk ?????????

  3. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    Turks talk about “freedom of speech”?????????????????????
    If my memory doesn’t fail me, Article 301 is yours!!!!!!!

    Please read the below extract:

    ORHAN KEMAL CENGİZ “Freedom of expression is hostage to the Armenian question”

    http://todayszaman.com/tz-web/yazarDetay.do?haberno=177192

    “…In my opinion, the biggest insult to Turkishness is the lack of freedom of expression in this country. Having this article and saying, “The debate about Armenian question should be left to historians” is not an honest approach. How can we discuss the Armenian question when there is a legally sanctioned ban?

    The prime minister recently said: “For years those of different identities have been kicked out of our country. … This was not done with common sense. This was done under a fascist approach.” These remarks have a historical importance. But is it also a step to get rid of Article 301? Will the prime minister grant the Turkish nation the same degree of freedom of expression as he has been exercising? We will see. One thing is certain: We need a much broader freedom of expression to make sure that this “fascist approach” goes to the dustbin of history.

  4. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    Excellent work Ergun!! As for the other commentors here (where’s JDA, etc.?), since you are all one and the same…RAT, as I address one, I also address all. You mention Freedom of Speech. Okay, let’s talk about that topic for a moment, shall we! You are orgasmic when it comes to anything that may be negative about Turkey (whether it is factual or not), yet deathly quiet when it comes to Armenia or dashnak Armenians. In the words of President Ronald Reagan…”There you go again!”. The typical Dashnak Armenian tactic of “Magic” is once more being employed! Since I have already discussed what this is with you on the other topics, I won’t go over it again (your key terms are slight of hand via misdirection and distraction). Take a quick look at Armenia…which, according to the UN (and now Amnesty International-2009), has one of the most corrupt, oppressive governments in the world! Try doing Freedom of Speech there! The religious persecution is one of the worst on the planet! You speak of the traitor Orhan Pamuk, yet you are completely silent when it comes to discussing the banned book by Armenia’s first Prime Minister and his sincere statements regarding what really transpired (and yes, I also wrote a nice piece quoting him from his book)! So RAT, save your Dashnak BS propaganda for the gulible and ignorant (your typical prey)! Your smoke and mirror shows are getting pretty old, real fast! Finally, when are you going to show any backbone and stay with one character? No one expects anything more from a dashnak anyway, but the very least would be for you to stick with the handle you’ve chosen and defend it, if you can, instead of running away like the typical dashnak coward (attack the innocent, claim that you were the victim by blaming others, try to get a quick hand out, then run away when confronted!)!

  5. Fahrettin Altay Pasha Avatar
    Fahrettin Altay Pasha

    Most European countries have an article similar to Turkey’s article 301.
    France, Germany, Spain, Belgium, Sweden, they all have similar articles.
    Lets talk about being fair!!!

  6. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    Mr. Fahrettin Altay Pasha,

    PLease, be so kind, list the similar articles from the mentioned countries legislation!!!

    Thank you iin advance.

  7. Fahrettin Altay Pasha Avatar
    Fahrettin Altay Pasha

    ALLA,
    I forgot you people are benine from doing any real research and just take everything for granted. Had you done enough unbias research on the entire “Genocide” histrionics, you would see what really eventuiated between 1870’s and 1920’s…. You will see and understand the Dashnaks for what they were.
    I will not go into detail as you need to do this research by yourself. Here are the basics

    Italy 290 and 291 (talks about 6 months to 3 years imprisonment for similar 301 issues)
    Poland 133
    Spain 543
    Germany 90a, 90b and 90 Prison from 12 to 36 mths
    Denmark 110e
    France 30, 33 (Hell, you cant even deny the Armenian Genocide… HOW DARE THEY TALK ABOUT FREEDOM OF SPEACH!!!)
    Portugal 332
    Austria 248
    Holland 92, 93
    Sweden, (Thay are as free as a bus load of Jews in a Hitler Rally. Try taking the streets and denying the Armenian Genocide…. Where is freedom of speech????)

    So you see mr Alla, the world is built on double standards!

    You have been brainwashed as a child to hate Turks. Do you have any Turkish aquaintances? Perhaps you may enjoy their company? You may warm to them… There must be a reason the two coexisted for 600 years in complete harmony.

  8. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    Good job! Bravo. Thank you.

    I don’t hate turks.
    It is impossible to hate all turkish people. Why?

    I don’t hate even you! It is not your fault, that you don’t know the history of your country, you don’t know the truth, which took place in 1915!

    My grandparents both from father and mother lines were from the Western Armenia – Van, Mush, Bitlis
    / by the way,Wiliam SAROYAN was born in Bitlis. My grandfather dreamed to be bury in his homeland – VAN…

    I don’t hate turks, I just try to understand why you were so cruel to your neighbours? Why – because they were more wealthy and brainy than turks, or????????? Your ancestors have changed my Armenian people life! My people is spread all over the world, they work, they create … but all these are not in their fatherland-Armenia… WHY???
    We cannot forgive you.

  9. Fahrettin Altay Pasha Avatar
    Fahrettin Altay Pasha

    Alla,
    The truth is your grandparents never lived in western armenia, they lived in Anatolia. The land of the Ottoman Turks. They lived there with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, economic freedom, and the Ottomans let thm do as they pleased. Many lived prosporous lives, and were wealthier than the Turks.
    The problem is the Dashnaks and Hinchaks wanted a greater armenia so the revolted against the Turks. What started as little rebelions and uprisings would go into history as the genocide of hundreads and thousands of Turks. They even killed Greeks, Kurds and even Armenians who stood in their way of a greater armenia.
    The demonstrations began in mid 1800’s and the Turks didnt deport them until 1915…. That is along time to wait dont you think? Doesnt this show that the Turks gave the Armenian rebels many, many chances and tried to reason with them, try to show understanding and forgiveness?
    The centers of revolutionary activity in Turkish Armenia were Zeitun, Van, and Erzurum. The Zeitun Rebellion of 1862 was the beginning of extensive uprisings directed against the Ottoman government. The inhabitants of Zeitun were a rebellious community where there were revolts as far back as the 1850’s
    Erzurum Revolt (20 June 1890)
    Kumkapi Demonstration (15 July 1890) the Hunchakian Party which organized the demonstration at Kumkapi. Hunchaks were not deterred. “They continued to organize demonstrations and insurrections in towns and villages inhabited by Armenians … Hunchak revolutionary activities were markedly evident in 1892 and even more so in 1893 especially during Merzifon, Kayseri, Yozgat Incidents.
    The First Sassun Rebellion (August 1894) It was the Hunchakian Party which organized the demonstration at Kumkapi on 15 July 1890. At the beginning of 1891, Sultan Abdulhamid declared an amnesty for Armenians. 76 Armenians who were freed in Istanbul went to the Patriarchate and gave an oath that they would never take part in such movements again.
    Merzifon, Kayseri, Yozgat Incidents (1892) The First Sassun Rebellion (August 1894) Murat (Boyajian) and a band of followers started minor acts of aggression against the Kurds, who countered with attacks against the Armenians.
    The Hunchakian Revolutionary Party organized a demonstration in Istanbul on 30 September 1895 at Babiali. The Hunchakian Revolutionary Party organized a demonstration in Istanbul on 30 September 1895.
    Trabzon, the former Governor-General of Van and the Trabzon commander were attacked and wounded by two Armenians on 2 October 1895.
    In Erzincan, Armenian volunteers shot several moslems in the local weekly market on 21 October 1895.
    In Bitlis, Armenians attacked a mosque as the Moslems were praymg on 25 October 1895.
    In Maras, Armenians opened fire on Moslems on 27 October 1895.
    In Erzurum, a group of armed Armenians entered the Government Office with the aim of assassinating the Governor and the staff, and killed the gendarmes who countered them on 30 October 1895.
    In Diyarbakir, again shots were fired by Armenians on the Moslems praying in the mosque on 2 November 1895. Fires started later in the mosques, Muslim theological schools, and shops, ninety percent of which belonged to Moslems.
    In Malatya, an Armenian barber killed a Muslim customer by cutting his throat with a razor at his shop which incited the Malatya incident on 4 November 1895.
    In Harput, an Armenian fired at and wounded three Moslems which incited clashes on 7 November 1985.
    Van Rebellion (1895-1896), The raid on the Bank Ottoman was organized by the Dashnak Committee on 26 August 1896 The second Sassun rebellion was also instigated by the Dashnaktsutiun Committee in 1904. The Assasination Attempt on Sultan Abdul Hamid (1905); a bomb was placed under his car which would explode as he left the mosque after prayers. This act has gone into history as the first recored act of URBAN TERRRORISM.
    On April 14, 1909 an armed confrontation began between the Moslems and Armenians in Adana driven by Armenians who wanted their own greater armenia….
    I have not even started to talk about WWI or the Russian invasion, when the Armenians sided with the Russians and committed attrocities against the state, an act of TREASON.

    Let me ask you this ALLA, if you were to start acts of terrorism in the country you currently reside in… how many times would it take before you are either sent to jail, executed or deported? As I stated the tescit laws were passed in 1915; this is ample time for the Dashnaks etc to pull their act together and smarten up…. Frankly, I dont think any country even today would wait 60 years.

    ALLA, what do you think about the above uprising, revoluts and terrorism acts? Do they teach you this in school or do you guys get taught that the entire Armenian population was having a picnic and the Turks came along one day, after 600 years of harmony and decided to deport them and try wipe them off the face of the earth? Common sense will always prevail.

    Alla, The population of Anatolia did not even house more than 1.2 million armenians at that time. Your figures do not add up. This is significant becuase you first started with double digits, then you went to hundreds and thousands, then 1 million, now 1.5 million dead. Any criminologist will tell you if the facts are not clear and suject to change over time thats becuase the fact are not substantiated.

  10. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    Alla (a.k.a. The RAT),

    Back again I see! Okay, answer me this…My grandfather, along with what remained of his family, relatives, friends and neighbors were survivors of the the genocide committed against them by the Russian-backed dashnak Armenians in Van (where over 20,000 Turks were massacred within two days!), Kars, Erzincan, Erzerum. They carefully wrote down and documented everything that they witnessed and experienced (these are now on file in the Turkish archives). Who mourns these murdered souls? Who speaks for them? All you dashnaks can do is repeat your BS propaganda over and over (like a broken record), always avoiding, at ALL costs, discussing the 2.5 million Muslim and non-Muslim victims of your dashnak Armenian bloodlust! Exactly how did they teach you when you were brainwashed at those Hitler-like youth camps known as the AYF? We already know that you dashnaks are now, and always have been and always will be…COWARDS! You defame, insult and then run away! You do not believe in the concept of a fair fight (in Glendale several years ago, a Turkish student with a small Turkish flag decal on his back window, had pulled into the parking lot at GCC (Glendale Community College) to attend an evening class. He was accosted by four Armenian punks. They made two mistakes…They pulled out knives. They didn’t know how to properly use them. The Turkish student had three black belts. In less than a minute, he was on his way while the four Armenian punks were on the pavement, with contussions and fractures.). You refuse to openly debate. You con the ignorant. You are the biggest whinners on this planet! You’ll notice that I always mention the dashnak Armenians as being evil (which they have long since proven that they are). The non-dashnak Armenians are good, hard-working people who know what REALLY happened, but are too terrified to talk about it because of the constant death threats they receive from the Dashnaks! I know several who have personnally told me the truth of what occurred before, during and after WWI. These stories are a lot different than the BS propaganda that you dashnaks have spewed out for the past century!

    So RAT, why do you keep sticking around? You only make a fool of yourself over and over again!!

  11. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    “The problem of our beloved nation is that it is subjected to the teaching of a fabricated history in which we Turks are always right and often the victim of foreign and domestic “enemies.” The end result of this ideology-laden history teaching is ignorance of the historical facts and the truth about what we have done. That is why an average Turk believes that the 1915 deportation of over a million Armenians is only a just measure for punishing them for committing treason. The 1923 population exchange with Greece that forced two-and-a-half million people of Greek origin to migrate was a successful ethnic purification that was necessary to build a nation-state”

    DOGU ERGIL “Controversy” http://www.todayeszaman.com

    P.S. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT YOU DON”T KNOW THE TRUTH and YOUR HISTORY!!! They have taught a fabricated history in which you Turks are always right. 🙂

  12. Fahrettin Altay Pasha Avatar
    Fahrettin Altay Pasha

    ALLA,
    DOGU ERGIL is a shadowy character. He has links to Fethullah Gullen movement, who in MY OPINION will say and do anything, just to destabilise Turkey. You only have to google “Dogu Ergil Fethullah” and you will see the results.
    Unfortunately we are in a very delicate era currently with the ruling AKP in Turkey. I am one who truly beleives they are not there for the bennefit of Turkey or Turks.
    This is not the correct forum to debate the current government of Turkey or the Gullen Movement.
    I will add however that I did not learn anything about the “Armenian Genocide” lies in schools in Turkey. Until only 5 years ago, I was benine from the entire thing… I came across a hate site (of which the Internet has many) with many Armenians ranting and falsly accusing the Turks. I beleived it at first, (lets face it, you have setup so many sites which claim to be “Official” (Even your consortium of Genocide scholars are fraudsters and in on your payroll. You only accept those who first of all agree the genocide took place before you talk to them) I ended up doing alot of my own research, reading many books, reviewing documents from the period in ALL Archives, not just Turkey’s…. And I have come to the conclusion on my own merit. Hell, My own parents did not teach me anything about Armenians. As far as I was concerned your race didnt exist until five years ago… Now I participate in enlightening the Western World and helping them wake from the web of lies which the Armenian Diaspora has spread over the past 94 years.

  13. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    ALLA = RAT,

    Once again you have proven my point! You dashnaks are your own worst enemy! Really, we don’t have to do anything!

  14. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    THE REAL FACE OF TURKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Miklos Haraszti, the OSCE Representative on Freedom of the Media, asked Turkish authorities today to drop charges against journalist Nedim Sener for his investigative book on the murder of fellow journalist Hrant Dink, and called for urgent reform of laws that restrict freedom of expression. “Sener is prosecuted in defiance of freedoms that both OSCE commitments and Council of Europe standards grant to critical publications,” wrote Haraszti in a letter to Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu. “What he did was critically assess the events leading up to Hrant Dink’s murder, and the deficiencies afterwards in the handling of the case and in the prosecution of the perpetrators.” “Justice must not be degraded into an act of revenge by the criticized authorities,” said Haraszti. Sener, a journalist for newspaper Milliyet, faces up to 28 years of imprisonment for writing a book, entitled The Dink Murder and Intelligence Lies. The book alleges that security forces failed to stop the murder of the well-known Turkish-Armenian writer in 2007, and cites alleged incidents of negligence by gendarmerie, police and national intelligence officers working on the case.

    “Media freedom commitments may be complied with only if fact-finding journalism receives the full backing of the law, and inaccuracies, if any have occurred, are not criminalized,” wrote Haraszti in the letter.

    “Legal provisions in Turkey could be misused to curb freedom of expression and information,” he added. “The Criminal Code, the Press Law, the Anti-Terrorism Law, and the recent Law No. 5651 on Internet regulation all need to be modernized so that they cannot be used to restrict speech rights.”

    “By dropping the charges against Sener, Turkey could now stop punishing the messengers of unwelcome news, and instead carry out much-needed legal reform to ensure freedom of expression,” Miklos Haraszti said.

  15. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    Mr. Robert,

    You are uncivilized person.

    I am very sorry for you…

  16. Fahrettin Altay Pasha Avatar
    Fahrettin Altay Pasha

    Alla, stop sidestepping the issues at hand. Read my post from June 17 and answer the question(s) I asked you.
    I need to understand you psychology. 🙂

  17. ALLA Avatar
    ALLA

    Mr. Fhretin Altay Pasha,

    What replies do you wait???

    You wrote: “They lived there with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, economic freedom, and the Ottomans let thm do as they pleased”.

    I know: “In the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Muslim Dhimmi system, Armenians, as Christians, were guaranteed limited freedoms (such as the right to worship), but were treated as second-class citizens. Christians and Jews were not considered equals to Muslims: testimony against Muslims by Christians and Jews was inadmissible in courts of law. They were forbidden to carry weapons or ride atop horses…”

    I KNOW:

    The Hamidian Massacres, 1894–1896

    The Adana Massacre, 1909

    Arrest and deportation of Armenian notables, April 24, 1915

    The Armenian Genocide, 1915–1917 period…

    On 13 September 1915, the Ottoman parliament passed the “Temporary Law of Expropriation and Confiscation”, stating that all property, including land, livestock, and homes belonging to Armenians, was to be confiscated by the authorities.

    ***
    P.S. Please read: Vahakn N.Dadrian’s “The Role of Turkish Physicians in the World War I Genocide of Ottoman Armenians” (Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Vol. 1, No 2, pp. 169-192)

    Mr. Fhretin Altay Pasha,

    It is better try to understand the depraved psychology of your ancestors and compatriots!!!!

  18. Robert Avatar
    Robert

    ALLA=RAT,

    You make the charge that I am uncivilized! You, of all “people”, are certainly in no position to make any kind of allegatory charges against anyone!!! The dashnak’s have had over a century to show to the entire world just how uncivilized, racists, cowardly, ruthless, traitorous, disrespectful, assassins, slanderous, arsonists, trecherous, undependable, insultive, heinous, murderous, scandallous, classless, blasphomous, unscrupilous, lying, denialist, side-stepping whinners they really are!! As a dashnak Armenian, you have no credibility…ergo…you have no say and are to be ignored…PERIOD!!!

  19. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    … uncivilized, racists, cowardly, ruthless, traitorous, disrespectful, assassins, slanderous, arsonists, trecherous,

    undependable, insultive, heinous, murderous, scandallous, classless, blasphomous, unscrupilous, lying,

    denialist, side-stepping whinners = = = Robert

    🙂 🙂 🙂 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  20. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    … uncivilized, racists, cowardly, ruthless, traitorous, disrespectful, assassins, slanderous, arsonists, trecherous, undependable, insultive, heinous, murderous, scandallous, classless, blasphomous, unscrupilous, lying, denialist, side-stepping whinners = = = Robert

    🙂 🙂 🙂 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  21. Alla Avatar
    Alla

    Mr.Robert,

    take an example of civilized people – Germans, Americans and APOLOGIZE FOR your ancestors’
    “fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality” and commiting of Genocide !

    FOR YOUR and TURKS’ INFORMATION!!!!

    ***
    Senate Approves Apology To African-Americans For Slavery

    The U.S. Senate approved a fiercely worded resolution Thursday that attempts to formally apologize for the “fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery” of African-Americans. The unanimous voice vote came five months after Barack Obama became the first black U.S. president, and ahead of the June 19 “Juneteenth” celebration of the emancipation of African-Americans at the end of the Civil War in 1865.

  22. Fahrettin Altay Pasha Avatar
    Fahrettin Altay Pasha

    Alla, if you sided with the enemy, and ignored the pleas of the government they would have no other option than to deport you and your backstabbing Dashnak kind. This practice has been carried out by the US to its Japanese citizens, Australians to its German and Japanese citizens etc… so on and so forth. The Ottomans asked all the Armenian leaders not to collaborate with the enemy, they swore an oath that they would side with the Ottomans, but this didnt happen. As one part took the oath, others were raping and pillaging unarmed Turkish woman and children. What type of honour do you have?? What would you expect to happen?
    No such law was passed, the Tescit law states no harm or damage was to come to the Armenian polulation. Infact, they were given similar proportianate land and livestock to what they had in Anatolia, when they reached their final destination. This is proven and found in Ottoman Archives in so many places it is not funny. The Russian archives and US archives also contain proof of this. Money was set aside to be given to the Armenian polulation also. You speak of nothing but lies and cant even show me proof of this. The only bit of evidence you can show is a document supposedly sent by Talat Pasha which even the Armenian Historians agree is a forgery by the Dashnaks. (Yet this document is still on show at the Genocide Memorial in Yerevan. Proof you will stop at nothing to slander and spread your lies and deception, poisoning the minds of young children)
    Dont ask me to read something and then show the author as an Armenian, this is just not funny!!!
    Why did Bogus Nhubar Pasha write the letter he did and send it to the Paris Peace Conference?
    Why did your first prime minister and a major player in your big fat dream of a greater armenia write his Manifesto: Hovhannes Katchaznouni First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic titled “Dashnagzoutian has nothing to do anymore”
    Why is the Russian archives full of documents (one being 65 pages) which refutes the “genocide” as nothing but lies?
    All your stories about the Tescit laws and deportation is based on live witnesses, witten by liars and biggots.
    Most scholars acknowledge that the Ottoman government did publish decrees and regulations to protect the “lives and properties of Armenians to be transferred.” No one denies the 15 regulations (for the well being of Armenians) published following the Tehcir Law on May 30, 1915. Article 4 of the regulations states that “attention will be paid to establishing the villages in places which suit public health conditions, agriculture and construction.” Other articles focus on the careful attention that governors must follow to ensure the survival of all Armenians, such as ensuring resettlement villages are no more than 25 kilometers from railroads, board and lodging that need to be provided to Armenians, allocation of land and providing tools and equipment for Armenian farmers who were relocated.
    Should I go on?????

  23. Fahrettin Altay Pasha Avatar
    Fahrettin Altay Pasha

    Alla,
    Also I forgot to mention that Armenians were in may cases more prosperous than many Turks during the period. Many of them were in high government positions, Bankers, writers, jewellers etc. This is still evident today, as many Armenians are still occupied in similar proffesions as their grand parents.
    You also say they had no weapons? Lets just look at the Russian and British Archives shall we?????
    FO 371/284-22083
    Dated 23rd February 1915, this document is a copy of a report sent to the Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Sazonov (1910 – 1916) by the Russian Embassy. The report blatantly states the Russians had armed the Armenians in Eastern Anatolia so they can rise against the Turks.
    FO 371/25167
    Dated 4th March 1915, is an example of a telegraph sent from Bulgaria. It states Bulgarian Armenian Committee member Monsieur Varandian, has gathered a force of 20 000 Armenian Volunteers who want to fight against the Turks and await British assistance to assist them to Iskenderun. Varadian also states there is half this number of volunteers ready to take up arms against the Ottomans in the United States.
    FO 371/2146-68443
    Dated 7 November 1914 states the Head of the Armenian Delegate Boghus Nubar, who is actually an Ottoman Pasha, states they are ready to fight alongside the Russians the objective being a greater independent Armenia.
    FO 371/2146-70404
    Dated 12 Nov 1914, is proof of the planned uprising of the Armenians against their ruling Ottoman Government, and mention of the Armenian Betrayal, labelling the Armenians as Traitors.
    FO 371/ 2485-126836
    Dated 7th September 1915, a report sent to the British Foreign affairs gives news of an Armenian Captain named “Tarko” who is in preparations for a massacre against the Ottoman Turks, and informs how they have planned with the finest detail.
    The Russian National Communist Party Archives Central Committee Secret Archives houses many documents which shed light onto what really happenned in 1915.

    Document 141
    Dated 23 January 1915. Commander of troops stationed at Kars sent a letter to the Commander of the Russian Caucasus Forces requesting knowledge of:
    In the Caucasus, which Armenian Voluntary units and who they are, which regiments they are connected to, and who among these will be located to the properties within Kars. This will allow civil unrest between the citizens and units, murders, robberies, and any type of force will lead to serious disruptions as a lack of discipline and moral amongst them.
    Public Record Office in London
    FO 371/2485-30439
    Dated 6th march 1915 states the Armenians are at the command of the Russians and assisting the French in Adana. The reason for this is to destroy the Ottoman Empire.
    Patrick Devejian
    State Minister, France
    “Armenians didn’t only escape, but they then joined the French armed forces and fought with the French”
    Russian National Communist Party Archives Central Committee Secret Archives
    Document 32
    Dated 10 January 1915; The mayor of Iskenderiya sent a letter to the garrison commander. He writes 1200 volunteers had taken up arms, In addition citizens of Iskenderiya numbering 5100 volunteers also had joined. Stating this number can be increased to 10 000 volunteers if needed.
    He requests 5100 rifles to be sent from Tiflis for these units.

    Now back to the TESCIT LAWS:
    Mesrob K.Krikorian, in the preface of his research entitled “Armenians in the Service of the Ottoman Empire 1860-1908” states that both in Anatolia and Syria, the Armenians were employed in various administrative, judicial, economic and secretarial fields and, to a lesser extent, in technical affairs, agriculture, education and public health. Armenians were also employed in the police force of provinces where there existed Armenian communities. Armenians held high level posts in the Ottoman Administration such as Minister of Foreign Affairs, Secretary General of the same Ministry, Ambassadors, Ministers of Finance, Treasury, and Public Works, Presidents of the State Banks and Post Services and as Governors.
    In an article entitled “La Societe Armenienne Contemporaine by B. Dadian, which appeared in Revue des Deux Mondes (Juin 1867) the writer says: “after the Turks hoisted their victorious flag on the citadel of Istanbul, they did not make almost any change on the civil and political conditions of the Sultans, the christian population maintained a sort of independence and their nationality.

    You see Alla, all the lies and accusations you regurgitate lacks logic. Everything I have written down is based on foreign literature. None of this can be biassed in anyway.

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