I DO NOT APOLOGIZE

ergun kirlikovali
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Some scholars in Turkey, the usual suspects long known for their anti-Turkish government and anti-Turkish state positions, are circulating a petition apologizing from Armenians. It is a free country; everyone can apologize to anyone, so there is no issue there. The issue arises when these people, and/or their supporters in the media, attempt to misrepresent the situation as if Turkey apologizes.

I do not apologize because, frankly, I am still waiting, like Turkey does since the conclusion of WWI, for the six apologies due from the following to the Turkish nation: 

The first, from Britain: for the wartime propaganda in the “Blue Book” on which today’s genocide claims are built; for the naval blockade of the food shipments to Anatolia which exacerbated the starvation conditions there; and for raining death and destruction on our grandparents’ in Anatolia; 

The second, from France: for the wartime propaganda in the “Yellow Books” and for raining death and destruction on our grandparents’ in Anatolia; 

The third, from the Tsarist Russia: for destroying a millennium of relatively harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia with her expansionist policies and brutal invasion of Anatolia using Armenians; 

The fourth, from the U.S. Protestant Missionaries sent from Boston: for dividing and polarizing teachings that destroyed a millennium of relatively harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia and caused mutual killings and for doing this inhumanity in the name of God; 

The fifth, from the New York Times: for biased and inflammatory coverage of Turkish-Armenians conflict in 1915; for not checking sources; for taking partisan reports filed by Armenian revolutionaries via missionaries and diplomats at face value; and for publishing 145 prejudiced reports demonizing Turks while allowing zero rebuttals to Turks; 

This sixth, from the Ottoman-Armenians: for destroying a millennium of relatively harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in Anatolia where Armenians prospered in peace by resorting to propaganda, agitation, terror, rebellions, and treason, in that order, between 1877-1920; 

When I get my apologies from the UK, France, Russia, US missionaries, the New York Times, and the Ottoman-Armenians, then I will offer my apology for the human suffering that was experienced by all Ottoman citizens, not Armenians alone, from 1911 to 1922. 

WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW IS TRUTH AND HONESTY, NOT SELECTIVE MORALITY

BIAS IN THE PHRASE “ARMENIAN GENOCIDE” 

If one cherishes values like objectivity, truth, and honesty, then one should use the phrase “Turkish-Armenian conflict”. Asking someone “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide” shows anti-Turkish bias. The question, in all fairness, should be re-phrased: “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?” 

Turks believe it was a civil war within a world war, engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenians with active support from Russia, England, and France, and passive support from the U.S. diplomats, missionaries, media, and others with anti-Turkish agendas, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire. [1]

Most Armenians claim it is a one way genocide, totally ignoring the Armenian complicity in war crimes ranging from raids, rebellions, and terrorism to treason, causing many casualties in the Muslim, mostly Turkish, community. 

GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS IGNORE “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”

While some amongst us may be forgiven for taking the ceaseless Armenian propaganda at face value and believing blatant Armenian falsifications [2] merely because they are repeated so often, it is difficult and painful for people like us, sons and daughters of the Turkish survivors most of whose signatures you see below. [3]

Those seemingly endless “War years” of 1912-1922 (seferberlik yillari) brought wide-spread death and destruction on to all Ottoman citizens. No Turkish family was left untouched, those of most of the signatories’ below included. Those nameless, faceless, selfless Turkish victims are killed for a second time today with politically motivated and baseless charges of Armenian genocide. 

Allegations of Armenian genocide are racist and dishonest history. 

They are racist because they imply only Armenian (or Christian) dead count, the Turkish (or Muslim) dead do not. [4] The former must be remembered and grieved; the latter must be ignored and forgotten. Do you know how many Muslims, mostly Turks, were killed during World War One? Answer: About 3 million, including half a million of them at the hands of well-armed, well-motivated, and ruthless Armenian revolutionaries and para-military thugs. [3,5] Compare that with less than 300,000 Armenian casualties [8] which number is gradually magnified to 1.5 million over the years through Armenian propaganda. 

And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss

“THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”: 

1) TUMULT (as in numerous Armenian armed uprisings between 1890 and 1920) [6,7] 

2) TERRORISM (by Armenian nationalists and militias victimizing Ottoman-Muslims between 1882-1920) [8,9] 

3) TREASON (Armenians joining the invading enemy armies as early as 1914 and lasting until 1921) [6,7,8,9,10] 

4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS (from 1877 to present, where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia. Ironically, if the Armenians succeeded, it would be one of the first apartheids of the 20th Century, with a Christian minority ruling over a Muslim majority ) [1-11] 

5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES (i.e. those caused by the Armenian nationalists: 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, met their tragic end at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries during WWI, per Turkish Historical Society. This figure is not to be confused with 2.5 million Muslim dead who lost their lives due to non-Armenian causes during WWI. Grand total: more than 3 million, according to Justin McCarthy) [7-10] 

6) TERESET (temporary resettlement) triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.) [12] 

Armenians, thus, effectively put an end to their millennium of relatively peaceful and co-habitation in Anatolia with Turks, Kurds, Circassians, and other Muslims by killing their Muslim neighbors and openly joining the invading enemy. Muslims were only defending their home like any citizen anywhere would do. 

VERDICT WITHOUT DUE PROCESS AMOUNTS TO LYNCHING

Those who take the Armenian “allegations” of genocide at face value seem to also ignore the following facts concerning international law: 

1- Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention (Like all proper laws, it is not retroactive to 1915.) [13] 

2- Genocide verdict can only be given by a “competent court” after “due process” where both sides are properly represented and evidence mutually cross examined. [14] 

3- For a genocide verdict, the accusers must prove “intent” and “motive” at a competent court and by allowing due process to run its natural course. This was not, perhaps cannot ever be, done by the Armenians, whose evidence mostly fall into five major categories: hearsay, mis-representations, exaggerations, forgeries, and “other”. [15]

4- Such a “competent court” was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist (save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul in 1920 where partisanship, vendettas, and revenge motives left no room for due process.) [8] 

5- Genocide claim is political, not historical or factual. It reflects bias against Turks. Therefore, the term genocide must be used with the qualifier “alleged”, for scholarly objectivity and truth. [1-15] 

6- Recognizing Armenian claim as genocide will deeply insult Turkish-Americans as well as Turkish-Europeans, and Turks around the globe. Such a conduct would negatively influence the excellent relations currently enjoyed between the U.S. and Turkey, if not the West and Turkey. It will, no doubt, please Armenian lobbies in the U.S. Europe and Turkey but disappoint, insult, and outrage Turkey, one of America’s closest allies since the Korean War of 1950-53. Turks stood shoulder to shoulder with Americans in Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and more. Armenian lobbies will have been allowed to poison the U.S.-Turkey relations. American gratitude and thanks will appear to come in the form of the worst insult that can be dished out to an entire nation. 

7- History is not a matter of “conviction, consensus, political resolutions, propaganda, or public relations.” History is a matter of research, peer review, thoughtful debate, and honest scholarship. Even historians, by definition, cannot decide on a genocide verdict, which is reserved only for a “competent tribunal” with its legal expertise and due process. 

8- What we witness today, therefore, amounts to lynching [14] of the Turks by Armenians and their supporters to satisfy the age old Armenian hate, bias, and bigotry. American values like fairness, presumption of innocence until proven guilty, objectivity, balance, honesty, and freedom of speech are stumped under the fanatic Armenian feet. Unprovoked , unjustified, and unfair defamation of Turkey, one of America’s closest allies in the troubled Middle East, the Balkans, and the Caucasus, in order to appease some nagging Armenian activists runs counter to American interests. 

9- Hate-based, divisive, polarizing, and historically biased proclamations, such as Schiff’s HR 106, have never been an American way to do business. Why start now? 

10- Those who claim genocide verdict [14] today, based on the much discredited Armenian evidence, are actually engaging in “conviction and execution without due process”, which is the dictionary definition of “lynch mobs”. 

APOLOGY ? 

Those who claim Turks need to apologize or show sensitivity to victims of WWI and/or their descendants-without remembering or respecting the Muslim, mostly Turkish, victims of the same WWI due to same wartime conditions-are insulting the silent memory of millions of Muslim, mostly Turkish, victims of WWI tragedy. They are also engaging in Ethocide [16], 

A new term coined by a Turkish-American in 2003, Ethocide means “systematic extermination of ethics via malicious mass deception for political, economical, religious, social, and other gain.” Ethocide comes with a new Turkish companion term: “AHLAKKIRIM” [17] 

If an apology is needed today, then the entire humanity should apologize for the mistakes and excesses of the past generations, without resorting to “selective morality” and discrimination on the basis of ethnicity, race, or religion. And if more sensitivity is required, then it should be provided by all for all, without resorting to division, polarization, hostility, bias, or bigotry. Our accounst of WWI are replete with expressions of sadness and sympathy for all the victims of WWI, Turk, Kurd, Laz, Circassian, Armenian, Arab, Greek, Jew, and all others. We do not feel we should segregate the Armenians or others from this lot and grieve only for them. 

If an apology is needed today, we should all start apologizing for the world hunger, global warming, aids epidemics, endless wars, inequity in income distribution, plundering human and natural resources, violation of civil rights of women, children, and some cases all humans, global lack of education and health care, and more. 

ISN’T IT TIME TO STOP FIGHTING THE FIRST WORLD WAR AND GIVE PEACE A CHANCE? 

We would like to conclude with a heartfelt message of peace: 

We wish the entire world just and lasting peace, good health, balanced and thriving nature, sufficient prosperity and unlimited happiness in the coming years. 

As Ataturk so ably put it for all of us: “Peace at home, Peace in the World.” 

………………………..

References: 

[1] History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, Vol I & II, Stanford Shaw (Cambridge University Press, London, New York, Melbourne, 1976) 

[2] The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story, Heath W. Lowry ( The Isis Press, Istanbul, Turkey, 1990) 

[3] The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire, Justin McCarthy (Arnold, London, U.K., 2001

[4] Declaration Signed by 69 Prominent North American Academicians, New York Times and Washington Post, may 19, 1985 (for a copy:

[5] Ermeniler: Sürgün ve Göç, Türk Tarih Kurumu (Ankara, Turkey, 2004) 

[6] Houshamatyan of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Centennial, Album-Atlas, Volume I, Epic Battles, 1890-1914 (The Next Day Color Printing, Inc., Glendale, CA, U.S.A., 2006)

[7] The Armenian Rebellion at Van, Justin McCarthy, Esat Arslan, Cemaletting Taskiran, Omer Turan (The University of Utah Press, Salt lake City, USA, 2006)

[8] The Armenian File, Kamuran Gurun (Rustem Bookshop, Mersin, Turkey, 1985)

[9] The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question, Esat Uras (Documentary Publications, Istanbul, Turkey, 1988) 

[10] Free E-Book : “Genocide Of Truth” by Sukru Server Aya, Based On Neutral or Anti-Turkish Sources ( Istanbul Commerce University, Turkey, 2008) For a copy: https://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/04/2429-new-e-book-genocide-of-truth-based.html

[11] “Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People”, Michael M. Gunter (Greenwood Press, New York, USA, 1986) 

 

[12] “Ermenilerin Zorunlu Göçü, 1915-1917, Kemal Cicek (Turk tarih Kurumu, Ankara, Turkey, 2005) 

[13] Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[14] Article 6, Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[15] Article 2, Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[16] Ergun KIRLIKOVALI, 2003, “It Was Not ‘Genocide’; It was – and still is – ‘Ethocide’ “, ; 

[17] Ergun KIRLIKOVALI, 2003, “SOYKIRIM DEGIL, AHLAKKIRIM ”
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92 responses to “I DO NOT APOLOGIZE”

  1. Nevin Avatar
    Nevin

    Very well written and argued. I will have to agree with the author on how the super powers in the beginning of the century used certain groups of people or media outlets to dive and polarize the public not only in Turkey but also in the West. It is this type of “us against them” thinking is causing all the blood shed and pain in the world…
    I enjoyed reading a well argued point!

  2. American Avatar
    American

    WHO IS ERGUN?

    It does not surprise that on a Turkish statist site, the anti-Armenian rhetoric is constant and harsh. It does surprise that Turkish Forum and other sites prominently feature the writings of Mr.Kirlikovali, whose writings are racist, pitiable and cowardly.

    Without shame he routinely misstaes what even Genocide Agnostic and denialist scholars say. For example, Lewis admitted that as many as 1,000,000. Armenians died; Ergun thinks the number is 50,000, and that those murdered died in what he calls “feuds”; he says here and elsewhere that Lewy “proved” there was no Genocide, while in fact, Lewy said the issue is unresolved, and he overlooks, as Lewy does not, that the vast majority of Armenians died while under Ottoman guard, thereby calling into question, as Lewy did, MCarthy’s thesis that these civilians died in a civil war.

    He almost-daily cites the 1985 scholar statement, overlooking that one of the four Ottomanists who signed it, Professor Quataert, has written in his 2000 and 2005 text, as well as the Bloxham book review, that the Armenians suffered Genocide. Even Lowry admitted that he saw a document from the Archives making him believe it was possible.

    None of this surprises. What does surprise is the daily drumbeat of racism. He has written recently that modern day Armenians cannot be trusted to serve honorably in the Armed forces of any nation, ignoring for example the honorable service of many scores of thousands of Armenian Americans, including four recipients of the Navy Cross, and the Congressional Medal of Honor. One doubts that Kirlikovali has worn any uniform, let alone a uniform in combat.

    It does surprise that he says “most” Armenians are “hateful”. Even a child could determine that is racism.

    Or his using the insulting term “Speedy Gonzalez” to describe a Mexican American journbalist, whom he chided, by also saying that the journalist should not do things as they are done in Tijuana. This is a record of racism pure and simple, and Americans see it as such.

    Do you want Turks to be seen in this way?

    And, he gives offense freely. When he called another poster a coward for not posting his name, which the poster said he would not do for fear of hacking, not assault, the poster challenged him to back up his insults with a refereed boxing match.

    No response from the otherwise garrulous Kirlikovali.

    This pitiable bully has fallen silent and run away, as all Bullies eventually do.

    Whatever some or even most Turks may think of the Diaspora, or Armenians, I can say that I have located no Armenian site with these kinds of racist and hateful comments about modern day Turks. If there was one. I would complain as loudly.

    What will you do about it?

  3. Recep Avatar
    Recep

    Great article. Why are we so disorganized though? How come these people, even though they are a minority, can get their voices heard, yet we cannot?

  4. Pierre Avatar
    Pierre

    Ergun,

    Along with that of TanerAkcam,your name appears on a MEMRI site that denounces antisemitisminTurkey. A portion of the site:

    LA PÉTITION: «Tolérance zéro face à l’antisémitisme»
    (Publiée par le magazine (socialiste) Birikim dans son numéro d’octobre 2004, et signée par des intellectuels tucs de toutes les religions)

    «Tant qu’un danger n’est pas clairement formulé, on ne peut rien faire contre. En outre, les termes flous ne font qu’occulter le mal.

    Nous, signataires, souhaitons attirer l’attention sur l’éternel antisémitisme turc, qui gagne régulièrement du terrain en Turquie, et faire part de nos observations et préoccupations à toutes les personnes intéressées.
    Les différents cas de violence raciste et de discrimination à l’encontre de citoyens non-turcs, non-musulmans et non-sunnites de République turque ont été dénoncés et condamnés, même si ce n’est que de façon limitée, alors que l’antisémitisme demeure, à quelques rares exceptions près, un problème tu, sous-estimé ou tout bonnement nié.

    «Les publications sont devenues des véhicules de confusion face à des concepts comme le nazisme, le fascisme, le sionisme, l’Holocauste, le génocide, etc., les vidant de leur sens et brouillant leurs différences. Elles minimisent l’Holocauste en niant son aspect historique unique, donnant ainsi le feu vert à sa réfutation.

    La spécificité historique de l’antisémitisme, la facilité avec laquelle il se répand, à travers toutes les classes sociales et tous les milieux culturels, fait qu’il doit être traité séparément. Nous souhaitons souligner qu’un large secteur de la gauche, dont le milieu militant pour les droits de l’Homme, ne mentionne pas dans son programme l’antisémitisme comme menace spécifique – et quand il se voit obligé d’affronter le problème, se contente de la placer sous la rubrique «antisémitisme», en ignorant la force.

    Cette situation illustre le fait que l’antisémitisme ne se limite pas à saluer Hitler mais revêt plusieurs visages différents.

    Il semble évident que quand il devient impossible de rendre compte de la complexité du monde, «l’autre – ennemi» est créé et isolé. Les Juifs ont été dans le passé, et sont encore aujourd’hui, la cible de ce «besoin», besoin qui porte un nom!

    L’antisémitisme actuel est activement diffusé par la presse islamiste dont une grande partie pousse l’audace jusqu’à faire l’éloge de la ‘prévoyance’ d’Adolf Hitler. Parallèlement, un étalage sans précédent de publications et de campagnes contre les ‘sabbataïstes’ a vu le jour, sabbataïstes dont les origines juives sont exposées d’une façon qui rappelle l’obsession nazie de créer une ‘race pure’; ils sont désignés comme étant les membres malveillants d’une secte secrète qui participerait au ‘complot juif pour dominer le monde’.

    Cette vague d’antisémitisme a pu progresser sans rencontrer d’obstacles dans les canaux islamistes ainsi que dans les principaux médias, pour s’installer dans la vie et le discours de tous les jours des Turcs. C’est devenu une seconde nature de voir ‘le doigt des Juifs’ derrière chaque pierre et d’inventer différentes théories de complot ayant ‘le Juif’ pour méchant.

    Nous proclamons par la présente notre opposition aux hypothèses antisémites envahissantes non remises en question, ainsi que notre détermination à atteindre un [niveau] de TOLÉRANCE ZÉRO FACE À L’ANTISÉMITISME, notre détermination à nous informer, à nous opposer, à écrire, à dessiner, à élever la voix et à demeurer solidaires de tous ceux qui sentent et pensent comme nous.»

    Did you sign this petition?

    Do you demand retraccion?

  5. GFH Avatar
    GFH

    BEN BİR TÜRKÜM VE ŞU ANDA TÜRKÇE KONUŞACAĞIM.BEN ÖZÜR DİLEMİYORUM!!!
    KENDİ DİLİNİZE ÇEVİRİN DE DUYUN

  6. Ismet Avatar
    Ismet

    I don’t think that minorities have an easier time of getting their voices heard – Turkey seems to be doing fine these days – But Turkish popular culture is paranoid – which is understandable – given the Ottoman history and the lack of open government –
    To the average Turk there is a conspiracy out to get the Turks – There is not – But if you say that many Turks will not believe you –

  7. GFH Avatar
    GFH

    GFH said

    “I am a Turk and at this moment I will speak Turkish. I m not sorry. Translate to your language and listen”

  8. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    The writer with an alias “Amrican” is actually a prominent member of the AFATH community (Armenian falsifiers and Turk-haters) and a cyber-stalker who is addicted to posting convoluted messages to confuse and derail issues.

    He likes hiding behind many aliases (American, pierrre, jda, etc. etc.) and falsifies at will behind the cover of anonymity. He is just another Armenian lobbysist rich with blaims and claims and poor with facts (save Armenian propaganda that he thinks are facts.)

    Just ignore him. He is not worth the time of honest and open-minded truth-seekers.

  9. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    American, why don’t you go into the Pan-Armenian site. So far I can’t find any Armenian site where there is no hatred for Turks. Considering they were the traitors, I can’t understand their hatred for the Turks. I don’t believe that only 50,000 Armenians died. I am certain that more than 300,000 died. Certainly not the exaggerated figure of 1 million. If that were the case there would hardly be any Armenians left. At least you have brought down the number from 1.5 to 2 million that some people quote. Maybe with some luck you will eventually bring down the numbers to more realistic figures. Despite all of this, no one can claim that innocent Armenians didn’t die during WW1. Like the millions of Turks and Kurds who had died. There just wouldn’t have been enough ammunition to kill so many Armenians when the Turks were being attacked from all sides.

    Getting to the Genocide claim. The solution is very simple. If you have the balls, why don’t you take your case to the international courts to determine whether a genocide had occurred or not? Regardless of the outcome though, you do not have a right for compensation from the Turkish government as what you are claiming for would have been committed by a government that no longer exists.

    How about growing up and out of a lost cause? There are many Armenians that would like to begin friendly relationships with Turks. I am sure that not all of you are the same. We are quite similar you know, remember we have lived together for more than a thousand years in peace.

    And considering that the Armenians have done worse crimes against the Turks than the Turks have done to them, we still do not hate Armenians. But we won’t apologise for something that we didn’t do. Wake up before we start wanting compensation from you…

  10. jda Avatar
    jda

    Leyla,

    I do not often read “Armenian sites”, so if you could identify them I would read them to see if, like Mr.Kirlikovali and this site, they project race hatred of people today, merely on account of their ethnicity. If they do, I condemn them, as would most Armenian and I hope, Turkish people.

    Kirlikovali, an honored columnist on this and other Turkish sites has said Armenians of today are all liars and hateful, and without sufficient honor to serve in the US military. In 2007 he wrote that Hrant Dink was killed not by the nationalists, but by an “anti-Turk”, which is code for Armenian. After Samast was arrested he never retracted, and none of you readers took him to task.

    We see the Nazi antics of Canan Aritman, and wish that Gul had said “I am not Armenian, but what if I were, that is no insult”. Instead he sued for defamation at the prospect of being called partially Armenian. Unfortunately, it is a common street insult to call someone an Armenian in Turkey.

    Your statement that Turlks suffered more at the hands of Armenains than vice-versa is laughable. Even the favored Professors Lewy and Lewis would reject that claim. And as to the constant claim that Armenians died in a civil war, or that great crimes were not committed against them, here is what Lewy and a Turkish historian he quotes say :

    “But many others [Armenians]lost their lives as a result of the deportations and the massacres…[.] The Turkish argument that the losses of both sides should be subsumed under the label ‘civil war’ undoubtedly has the purpose of deflecting attention from this basic fact. The large number of Armenian atrocities is irrelevant in this connection and does not make the ‘civil war’ argument any more convincing. Dissenting from the prevailing national consensus, Turkish historian Selim Derengel has insisted that “colossal crimes were committed against the Armenian people in Anatolia and elsewhere” and that “no historian with a conscience can possibly accept the ‘civil war’ line, which is a travesty of history.I agree withthis view.”

    I urge you to read the books on all sides of this question.

  11. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    I ask jda (or Pierre, or American, or ararat53, or million other fake names) two simple questions and never get a staright answer:

    1- How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during WWI?

    2- Were Armenian clergymen involved in the raids and killings?

    (Watch now, he will write long messages filled with lies, libel, intimidation, ridicule, and threats, without giving answer to these two specific questions. Is he stupid? Does he not understand? No. He is just devious and deceptive. He is “deja vu”. )

  12. Edmond Avatar
    Edmond

    Mr. Kirlikovali

    To answer your questions

    1- we killed as many Turkish and Kurdish Tugs as we could after we found out that we are being exterminated and finally were able to gather weapons. Of course the numbers come no where close to how many Armenian civilians were Buchered. It is a straw man’s argument.

    2- Armenian clergymen blessed our Fedayees to do the best they can to save as many Armenians as possible from the murdering Turks.

    Mr. Kirlikovali. You said on another place that “When Hrant Dink was murdered in 2006, the entire country of Turkey, from its president down to its man on the street, condemned the killing for days.
    Why do you fail to mention that even though you said sorry you turned around and handed Hrant Dink’s killer the Turkish National Flag for the picture taking frenzy. Do you really think people are stupid?
    You also call us Terrorists. The only country that considers Armenians terrorist is Turkey. Those Armenians never killed innocent people like your country does everyday. If you are not man enough to admit the atrocities that you have inflected on my people then you are no better than the Butchers who gassed the Armenian children to purify them.
    Where is you honor Turk, how can you sleep at night knowing what your ancestors have done, how could you walk the land that does not belong to you and where the dirt is still soaking with Armenian blood and full of Armenian bones. Let’s forget about the Armenian Genocide for a moment. What are you doing to the Kurds right now Turk? I will tell you. You are Turkeyfying your country sides by eliminating the Kurds, taking over their possessions and leveling their villages while you maintain the threat of PKK alive to keep your Military industrial complex well fed. The Islamist party is threatening to take over your government, and the military is ready at anytime to take a coup to cleanse all moderate oppositions, like they have before. You use the racist Article 301 to shut your intellectuals up. Turkish Fascism is running amuck in your country while the Ergenekons (descendents of Ottoman’s Abdulhamid II and Young Turks ideological party) are calling all the shots and maintaining “The Deep State” condition. You run kangaroo courts to justify your democracy but kill and torture your own people in your lovely jails.
    For example your Ultra Nationalists Gray Wolfs are no different that the Butcher battalions you used to kill, rape, torture the Armenian women and children. Really brave Turk. They say Saddam committed Genocide when he Gassed 5000 Kurds. How many has your country killed Turk? That is right, multiply be a factor of 10.
    The only reason you are still getting away with the Armenian Genocide is because of your blackmailing of US and Israel. You spend Millions lobbying against Armenia, bribing US politicians and threatening to hurt my people in Armenia if we don’t drop this issue. Now with Obama screaming Genocide you are in Israel begging them to use their influence further to do something about it in US. The only reason you have a country after WWI is because the leaders of the Allies decided that it would be more beneficial to install a Muslim ally country instead of the rightful owner, Christian Armenian to control the Middle East but you had to be secular and democratic. Who was Ataturk anyway? I suggest you open up his Archives and share it with your countrymen instead of your forged Armenian deportation papers.
    Stop it, don’t doing this, the whole world knows what happened. All the leaders know what happened. Redeem yourself and find your identity. I have more respect for Turks who admit it and threaten to do it again then cowards like you.

  13. Pedro Xaramillo Avatar
    Pedro Xaramillo

    The most amusing thing of Mr. Kirlikovali’s posts is that he forgets that the nation that has been targeting Muslims the most is Turkey.

    In Turkey, if you are a Muslim woman you cannot observe chador in public, meaning no headscarf even.
    Constantly, Turkey has allied with the US and Israel, attacking Palestinians and supporting the bombing of Lebanon, Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq not to mention the pressure on Iran.

    All the current actions Israel has done has not been protested against by the Turkish government, but Armenians everywhere are showing solidarity for the Arabs.

    In Armenia, the Blue Mosque of Yerevan is open to all, there are Kurds and small pockets of other Muslims who do pray there without question.

    Now there are Christian churches in Turkey, but recently a Catholic priest was attacked by Bozkurtlar, what was the response, a slap on the wrist.

    Nobody at the moment does more against Muslims and their harmony than Turkey

  14. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    TURKS CONDEMNED THE DINK KILLER; BUT ARMENIANS EMBRACED THE ARIKAN KILLER; THAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TURKS AND ARMENIANS

    The members of Turkish-American community condemned the murder of Hrant Dink in the strongest possible language; expressed deep sorrow and conveyed heartfelt condolences to the victim’s family, friends, and, the entire Turkish nation.

    Turks also condemned the killing with their outpouring of heartfelt condolences; tens of thousands of Turks marched in Istanbul streets to protest. Public statements of sorrow and sympathy from top political leaders down to ordinary citizens covered the front pages of every newspaper. The killer’s own father actually turned his son in to the police!..

    What more can any honest and fair person ask from a nation whose police caught the assassin within 36 hours!..

    Now compare this Turkish reaction to the killing of an Armenian in Istanbul with the Armenian reaction to the killing of a Turk in Los Angeles. How did the Armenians react when the Turkish diplomat, Kemal Arikan, about the same age as Hrant Dink at the time of death, also married, also had kids, was assassinated in the same dastardly way as Hrant Dink, on January 27, 1982, in Los Angeles?

    Was any protest march organized spontaneously like the ones in Turkey?

    Did Armenians march down the Wilshire Avenue , for instance, shouting “We are all Kemal Arikan today” and “We are all Turks today”?

    Were there thousands of Armenians condemning a dastardly hate crime committed in our midst by a brainwashed young Armenian teenager , Hampig Sassoonian (the convicted Armenian killer, was 19 years old? )

    Was there a massive opposition by Armenians to hate crimes victimizing Turks?

    Answers are: No, no, no, and no…

    How about the other two Turkish diplomats gunned down in Santa Barbara in 1973 by a hate-filled Armenian older man?

    Did anyone verbal, written, and/or organized protest then? Any march downtown? Any posters bearing the Turkish victims likeness?

    Any catchy slogans condemning Armenian terrorism?

    Anything?

    Answers are, again: No, no, no, no, and no…

    Did the French do any protesting or marching or condemning in 1980s when the Armenian terrorists attacked the Orly Airport killing many? Or the Turkish consulate in Marseille or Lyon?

    Did the Austrians organize any protest marches in 1970s condemning the Armenian terrorist attacks on the Turkish Embassy in Vienna killing innocent Turks?

    Did the Canadians organize any protest marches in 1970s and 980s condemning the Armenian terrorist attacks on the Turkish Embassy in Ottawa and killing innocent Turks?

    The list of Armenian terrorsit atacks around the globe goes on and on.

    When you compare the reaction to hate crimes by nations, you know Turks passed the test of empathy, compassion and tolerance with flying colors.

    And Armenians flunked the test of empathy, compassion, and tolerance miserably, but did pass the test of hate-cultivation, vengeance, and venom with flying colors.

    I am not judging the Diaspora Armenians; the history of the last 30+ years is.

    But wait. It gets worse.

    When a 17 year old Turkish kid killed an innocent Armenian writer, the killer’s Turkish father immediately turned him over to the police and the Turkish nation from top to bottom condemned the killer. The Turkish assassin and his hate crime were shown zero tolerance by Turks.

    But when Hampig Sassoonian, the 19 year old Armenian kid who killed an innocent Turkish diplomat, did the killer’s family turn him over to the LAPD? Of course not! In fact, far from it.

    The Armenian assassin was hidden from view in a series of safe Armenian homes until anonymous tips led to killer’s capture by LAPD.

    What did the Armenian Diaspora do?

    They sheltered the killer!

    As if that was not reprehensible enough, they then raised funds for the murderer’s legal defense in Armenian churches. They held candle light vigils glorifying a brainwashed, bloodthirsty teenager assassin. They treated the 19-year-old Armenian assassin like a hero!

    When you compare these two diametrically opposite reactions against an identical hate crime 24 years and 10,000 miles apart, you cannot help but be impressed by the strong and swift Turkish protests condemning it and absolutely disgusted by the equally strong and determined Armenian embrace of it.

    This is a documented and irrefutable fact, etched in stone. Even the most biased and virulent Turk-hater should be able to see this big picture and hopefully wake up.

    I PROTESTED THE DINK KILLING ALTHOUGH I STRONGLY DISAGREED WITH DINK’S VIEWS

    I did not know Dink personally and I strongly disagreed with him on his characterization of Turkish-Armenian conflict during WWI. Here were our major differences:

    1- Dink called it genocide, I know it was not; it was a civil war started by Armenian nationalists.

    2- Dink was compassionate about the Armenian suffering and losses; I am compassionate about both Turkish and Armenian, as well as others’ suffering and losses during the same time period and in the same geography. I do not approve of selective morality, double standards, or hypocrisy.

    3- Dink ignored or dismissed Armenian treason, revolts, and terrorism; I write about them all the time.

    4- Dink hardly ever mentioned the Ottoman-Armenians who donned the uniforms of the invading Russian and French armies to kill their fellow Ottoman citizens, i.e. their Muslim neighbors; I stress that forgotten (or ignored) fact in my writings.

    5- Dink wanted dialogue and peace; so do I along with 70 million Turks in Turkey and 5 million Turks around the globe. Dink thought dialogue and peace could come from, well, accepting Dink’s views. Whereas I think dialogue and peace can come from “learning about the other side of the story, namely the Turkish side and making room for Turkish suffering and losses (like my grandparents…)” If you want others to feel empathy for you, then you should not withhold it from others.

    6- Dink did not dwell upon more than a million Azeri non-combatants, made refugees at gunpoint on their own soil in 1992 by the Armenians; I wrote about this shameful ethnic cleansing campaign waged in this day and age by Armenia frequently (it still continues as you read these lines.)

    7- Dink did not condemn Armenian aggression in Karabagh and the wholesale massacre of the entire population of Khodjaly on February 19, 1992; I did, many times.

    8- Dink wanted the Turkish-Armenian border opened, as he thought trade would improve relations and increase prosperity in the region. I want Armenia to end military occupation of Azerbaijan first, allow the 1+ million Azeri refugees to return to their homes in Karabagh and western regions of Azerbaijan, and recognize Turkey’s current borders, delegate the civil war/genocide debate to qualified historians with open access to all archives, then and only then, can the Turkish-Armenian border be opened.

    9- While Dink, and many biased and ill-informed and hate-filled Diaspora Armenians and their self-serving allies, wanted Turkey to face her history; I wanted Armenians, and their many western allies, to face their own history along with Turks facing Turkish history (England, France, Russia, the U.S., and others, for example.)

    10- Dink implied facing history would build a better future; I am saying facing Dink’s version of history is a bad idea due to falsified and biased nature of Dink’s version of history.
    As you can see, while Dink and I agreed on the need for calm dialogue and peace between the Turks and the Armenians, we disagreed on how to get there – and pretty much on everything else.

    Although these differences in opinion are stark, they are no reason for anyone to be hurt or shot.

    We should be able to settle our differences by words, not bullets.

    I still see some Armenians and their non-Armenian friends today, for example, who display zero tolerance for the other side of the story and act like crazed lynch mobs with their words and/or deeds.

    Last word: Let the unadulterated truth , not Armenian propaganda, resolve this controversial debate.

  15. Dussardier Avatar
    Dussardier

    And when Gourgen Yanikian was tried for his double murder (the first mayor terrorist attack against Turkey by Armenians, post-1945), the most important Armenian associations of Los Angeles sent bus for transport until the tribunal many Armenian-American children (from 7 to 13 years old). Gourgen Yanikian was prestented to this children as a hero, just because he killed two Turks.
    More recently, in April 2008, during a lecture of Richard G. Hovanissian, a banner with the pictures of Turkish diplomats assassinated by ASALA and JCAG was deployed. An Armenian woman cried: “more should have been killed!”

  16. Dussardier Avatar
    Dussardier

    “we killed as many Turkish and Kurdish Tugs as we could after we found out that we are being exterminated and finally were able to gather weapons. Of course the numbers come no where close to how many Armenian civilians were Buchered. It is a straw man’s argument.”
    The peoples who killed Turks and Kurds were not THE Ottoman Armenians, but SOME Ottomand and Russian Armenians. The total Ottoman Armenian population was, in 1914, 1750 000 peoples. The total of Armenian volunteers was some dozens of thousands of peoples.
    The first great massacre of Muslims by Armenian guerilla during the WWI was in November 1914, i.e. several months before the first deportation of Armenians. The were several other massacres between November 1914 and March 1915, also before the first deportations.
    During the great massacres of Muslims of the year 1916, the Armenian (and Assyrian) criminals were a part of the Russian army.
    During the third period of great massacres, from December 1917 to May 1918, in Eastern Anatolia (Erinjan, Erzurum, etc.) the Armenian volunteers were, during this time, the singly armed force; because the Russian army withdrew, and the Ottoman army was not yet arrived.
    The ethnic cleansing in the Caucasus, and in the Kars region, from 1919 to 1921, was perpetrated by Russian Armenians, who were obviously not concerned by the deportation decrees.
    According the Ottoman archives, Armenian gangs killed more than 500,000 Muslims during the WWI and the Turkish war of Independence. According to the best estimations, the total of Ottoman Armenian losses, during the same period, was between 600,000 (Justin McCarthy) and 688,000 (Youssef Courbage and Philippe Fargues). Guenter Lewy gives the figure of 642,000.
    Within the total, there are around 175,000 of Armenians who perished because the ineptness of Russian army, during the displacment through Caucasus. There are also several dozens of thousand of Armenian died during the battles, with or against the Ottoman armu; and several dozens of thousands of Armenians, who perished because the ordinary mortality of war, diseases and epidemic.
    The total of Armenian who perished during the deportations and in ressettlements was probably close to the figure of Salahi Sonyel in his book “The Great War and the Tragedy of Anatolia”, i.e. from 300,000 to 400,000. This figure includes many Armenians who perished without criminal intention.
    Anyway, a huge number of Armenians were killed by Muslims in 1915-1916, but this not is higher to the total of Muslims killed by Armenians from 1914 to 1922.

  17. Dussardier Avatar
    Dussardier

    “Kirlikovali, an honored columnist on this and other Turkish sites has said Armenians of today are all liars and hateful, and without sufficient honor to serve in the US military. In 2007 he wrote that Hrant Dink was killed not by the nationalists, but by an “anti-Turk”, which is code for Armenian. After Samast was arrested he never retracted, and none of you readers took him to task.”
    The Dashnak terrorists, the Hunchakian terrorists and the ASALA killed many Armenians who did not support the ultra-nationalists claims. Until the arrestation of the real guilt, the hypothesis of a murder by Armenian terrorist was not absurdious.
    For example, L. Tourian, chief of the Armenian church for America, was assinated by fanatic Dashnaks, after a hate campaign in the dashnak newspapers. L. Tourian was killed in his church, on December 25, 1933.
    In 1982, an Armenian movie theater of Beyruth was partially destroyed by bomb of ASALA, because the boss refused to give money to ASALA and diffused Turkish films. Two Libanese-Armenians were killed.
    Hrant Dink was hated by the Dashnaks and the Hunchakists. Ara Sarafian pointed correctly that those who are using the dead of Hrant Dink for political prupose were the same who defamed him as a “Turkish agent”.

  18. Edmond Avatar
    Edmond

    I can imagine it must have been very hard and painful to have lost a loved one by the hands of what you have perceived to be as the enemy of your state but you must understand that to continue using your personal vendetta to hide the truth will not heal your pain and in fact it is causing more damage to the collective Turkish conscience.

    Those 200 hundred intellectuals who have started the apology petition in Turkey should not be persecuted under your “insulting Turkishness” laws but must be supported by intelligent Turks like yourself who are in a position to make a difference for the good and honor of the Turkish Nation. This is not a purely Armenian issue but more importantly it is a question of Turkish identity, not that I worry about Turkish identity but if I was a Turk….that is what I would want.

  19. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    Edmond, you must be a very silly man indeed. What in heavens name are you talking about with the following?
    “Those Armenians never killed innocent people like your country does everyday.”

    Armenia is committing genocide “TODAY”! In Ngorno-Karabag NOW, as we speak. Armenians have proven how genocidal they are. We really don’t have to say very much at all.

    If the Armenians have balls, they would take their case to the international courts today. Open up their archives like the rest and prove that it really happened. Until then, I suggest that you stop making accusations. Anything you say is worthless.

  20. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    How stupid is the following comments:

    The only reason you are still getting away with the Armenian Genocide is because of your blackmailing of US and Israel. You spend Millions lobbying against Armenia, bribing US politicians and threatening to hurt my people in Armenia if we don’t drop this issue.

    At the moment if the Armenian Diaspora had spent all their millions on improving their country rather than trying to bribe people in the west, Armenia would be a much richer country now. You have no pity for your country. All you can think about is how much more money your can bleed from the west. And if that wasn’t enough, you are trying to find ways to bleed Turkey. Here is another bombshell for you, you cannot take Turkey to court or for compensation because the system that supposedly committed the so-called genocide no longer exists. Are you willing to apologise for the atrocities your people committed? I didn’t think so…

    Secondly, you never were and never will be the leaders of the middle east. The Arabs will never accept that. The Ottomans ruled over all of you and still couldn’t rule the Arabs. As bloodthirsty as you are, I don’t think that you would be able to control the Arabs so how about stop dreaming.

    As for the Kurds, firstly mind your own business. In Armenia, how many operating mosques do you have? 1. What do you think? You are so democratic aren’t you? How many Turks live in Armenia – how about close to nil. Why, because probably they are too terrified. You are the most racist people around. Why don’t you do your research and see how wonderful Armenia is. You have go to be joking about eliminating Kurds. 20% of the population are Kurds, just how in heavens name do you think we can eliminate them. And how to categorize a Kurd? Just about everyone is either Kurdish in some degree or another or have close Kurdish friends. And any fool that lives in the region should know that you cannot eliminate or even suppress Kurds, see what happened with Saddam Huseyin. As a last resort he gased them (which I do not approve of) and still he couldn’t do anything.

    And another point, Turkish Armenians are absolutely and are more nationalistic about Turkey than Turks are. We do not take your views as being theirs any form whatsoever.

    By the way JDA, doesn’t the responses from your Armenian friends on this site show you how much hate and venom they have to us? I assure you that we do not have the same sentiments even though we have more right.

    Just google Armenians, you should find hundreds of sites that show you their hate.

    By the way, no one is saying Armenians didn’t die in the deportations. They were probably attacked by many different people – Armenians, Kurds, Turks and Arabs. But the Turkish government couldn’t leave them where they were because they were allowing their henchmen to kill too many innocent people in the area.

    It was war, many innocent people (mostly Turks) were killed – get a life, get over it God know we would love to.

  21. Edmond Avatar
    Edmond

    Just wanted to verify that my first two posts here were directed at Mr. Kirlikovali and awaiting answer from him on my second post. Also I am only posting under my first name Edmond. I don’t play games. I am not affiliated with any political groups…I am your normal everyday hard working nobody Armenian living in Diaspora, one insignificant voice speaking against the crimes committed against his people who are screaming from their graves for justice and closure.

    Layla (I like your name), where did you get the idea that Armenians want to be the leaders of ME? What a strange comment. We can’t even lead ourselves properly, mostly due to consequences of the Genocide….but you don’t believe it happened so there is no use arguing there.

    You make this outrageous claim that Armenians are committing Genocide on Azeris…the level of success in brainwashing done by your government on its citizens is astonishing. Do you even know what Genocide means? I bet you don’t.

    The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, describes genocide as “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” Genocide is committed by the State against its own citizens. Clearly this definition applies in the case of the atrocities committed against the Armenians. Because the U.N. Convention was adopted in 1948, thirty years after the Armenian Genocide, Armenians worldwide have sought from their respective governments formal acknowledgment of the crimes committed during W.W.I. Countries like France, Argentina, Greece, and Russia, where the survivors of the Armenian Genocide and their descendants live, have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide. However, as a matter of policy, the present-day Republic of Turkey adamantly denies that a genocide was committed against the Armenians during W.W.I. Moreover, Turkey dismisses the evidence about the atrocities as mere allegations and regularly obstructs efforts for acknowledgment. They in fact claim that it was Armenians who committed Genocide. Affirming the truth, therefore, has become an issue of international significance. The recurrence of genocide in the twentieth century has made the reaffirmation of the historic acknowledgment of the criminal mistreatment of the Armenians by Turkey all the more a compelling obligation for the international community.

    The Turks have adopted the line of “leave Armenian history to the historians” because they are losing their propaganda battle. The issue of the Armenian Genocide is not a question of historical truth; that has been settled; it is rather an issue of morality and the acceptance of the truth.

    When the armed government of 25 million people turns on and exterminates an unarmed minority of three million old men, women, and children, it is hardly an “intercommunal struggle”, “an ethnic feud”, or “civil war”; it is nothing more or less than genocide

    We don’t want to take Turkey to court (not yet), in fact we don’t expect Turkey to recognize anything. This is between Armenians and US. This is about America who was the first to recognize such atrocities during President Wilson’s time to represent its 500,000 Armenian population. We know to what lengths Turkey will go to never allow such a bill to pass and we also know that US needs Turkey in its wars against ME countries. We are very patient…time may not be on our site but the truth is.

    You don’t feel pity for Armenians but I do feel pity for Turks who live a life of clay….shaped by their elitist and enforced with Article 301. Yes, I do feel sorry for those Turks who have been betrayed by their own leaders to live a life of lies.
    We may feel hate for Turks, that is understandable after all it has happened…. but we do not show this amazing level of racism and prejudice that is a norm in Turkish society even against their own Turkish citizens.
    What will happen to those 200 intellectuals and 25000 supporters who are scared out of their lives right now?
    I wish them to be safe.

  22. Dussardier Avatar
    Dussardier

    “I can imagine it must have been very hard and painful to have lost a loved one by the hands of what you have perceived to be as the enemy of your state but you must understand that to continue using your personal vendetta to hide the truth will not heal your pain”
    These words describe very good the obsessions of Armenian activists.

  23. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    Edmond,

    Are you saying that Mr Kirlikovali’s pain should be disregarded and that the Armenian one only should be considered? Can you not pose exactly the same question to the Armenians because as far as we can see it, the Turk’s whose families were massacred are not making anywhere as much noise as the Armenians. And why do you state the Armenians as being a perceived threat? Armenian henchmen came and killed his family – what is percieved as being wrong in that?

    Those 200 intellectuals have received thousands and thousands of Euros for their support of the apology, how can we feel pride in such lowlifes? Would you? As a Turk our conciences are clear, as an Armenian is your concience clear? If our government does something as stupid as apologise for something that is not only not proven to be true but for something that may have happened under a different government we would feel extreme shame. It would be like asking the Armenian government to apologise for the Armenian henchmen’s barbarisms.

    The exact numbers by the way are:

    Number of Ottoman Armenians in 1914 – 1,000,000
    Armenians re-located – 438,000
    Total number of Armenians died for a variety of reasons – 50,000 to may be up to 100,000.
    Number of Armenians who returned, including those who left earlier on their own and returned with the Russians when they occupied eastern Anatolia 200,000.

    This information is provided by Dr Hikmet Ozdemir who has been conducting a research on the Armenian issue and the re-location of Armenians in eastern Anatolia for security reasons for over four years. Dr Justin McCarthy states the number of Armenians killed/dead to be around 600,000.

  24. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    Here was something that was sent to me some time ago that would explain a little of the Armenian phsyche:

    Turkish Armenian Dialogue (!)
    By Emeni DUZCAKIR

    Armenian – You must apologize

    Turkish – Why?

    Armenian -Because you made genocide

    Turkish – When?

    Armenian – 90 years ago

    Turkish – You mean the 1st World War ?

    Armenian -Yes

    Turkish -What happened? What do you call ‘genocide’ for?

    Armenian -You destroyed all Anatolian Armenians.

    Turkish – We didn’t destroy anyone. It was war, you declared fight against us, it was a struggle; we acheived, you couldn’t.

    Armenian-But you forced innocent people to a death-march.

    Turkish – Those local people were feeding guerillas, who declared fight against their state.

    Armenian – All of them can not be guilty, how can a kid or an old ill person be guilty about it and deserved to be punished.

    Turkish – They were not punished, they were relocated. Majority of them stayed alive. If they were forced to leave the country, through North-East, to the front lines, would it be better? But Russia did that for Caucasus Muslims, they were forced to go through front lines into Anatolia. Your people were relocated in places away from war. If they were not relocated there, their homelands were already a fight region, because it was under invasion of an enemy state which you supported. Local races were hostile to each other. If they were not relocated, the ones who stayed alive, could have died in the places they left.

    Armenian – I don’t care. You were the authority, you should have kept your territory in peace. We were minority and you were majority. So you had the responsibility to protect your citizens.

    Turkish – If you were the minority, how could you claim independence?

    Armenian – We were minority but we were not 1000 years ago. You came and killed us and became majority. Lands were our sacred lands.

    Turkish – It is very long ago, but it is a fact that nomad Turks were flowing from central Asia to Anatolia, due to population increase. They came here and established their lordship. I suppose they didn’t destroy anyone but only got the lordship from East Roman empire. The people, changed their citizenship only. They started to pay the tax to different people. They kept living and doing what they do before.

    Armenian – No no, you are Muslim we are Christian, you probably killed us.

    Turkish – ???

    Armenian – You can’t find even a word. Because you are guilty, like your grand father.

    Turkish – ???

    Armenian – Yes… yes… you are guilty and a bloody denier. There is no need for dialogue. Accept it or shut up!… There should be no relations between Turkey and Armenia because you killed my grandpa.

  25. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    Here was another very interesting email I received:

    Article 33 of the U.N. Charter specifies the methods to be used for the peaceful resolution of international conflicts. By agreeing to have the Armenian issue resolved through arbitration or adjudication, Turkey has accepted all the methods cited in that article.
    The Armenian side and those individuals and organizations in the West that support them are not suggesting paths of peaceful resolution. They are convinced that the Armenian incidents were genocide. They expect Turkey to acknowledge this “fact,” engage in an exercise of memory and face up to its past. A judicial process would require both sides to strain to stretch their capacity to remember. It would also provide a chance to go through the history of the event in a hairsplitting manner.
    However, this is not the only reason for Turkey to opt for the judicial path. The fact that Turkey is rejecting the genocide allegations attests to the presence of a conflict. Conflicts can only be resolved via peaceful means, and taking the legal path is one of them. On the other hand, the substance of this particular conflict pertains to law. For this reason there is no way other than the judicial path to resolve it.
    Genocide is a word denoting a specific category of crime. Crimes are defined by law. The U.N. Genocide Convention of 1948 defines the crime of genocide in Article 2. According to Article 6 of the convention, only a competent court can decide whether the crime of genocide has been committed or not. In other words, legislative or executive bodies are not authorized to pass judgment on this issue. Yet the Armenians base their genocide allegations not only on made-to-order books they have elicited from certain “historians” but also on genocide resolutions they have obtained from legislative bodies in 18 countries and statements made by certain political figures.
    In reality, the plaintiff itself, Armenia, should have taken the judicial path. It should have sought our permission for retroactive application of the 1948 convention so that it could be applied to the 1915-1916 incidents. Yet Armenia has consistently avoided that. The Armenian diaspora has been lavishly spending money to promote the genocide allegations. It would be unthinkable for them not to have consulted the best jurists in the world. Yet they have always preferred to limit their activities to the realm of propaganda. Obviously they must have received advice from those experts to the effect that the judicial path would not be “auspicious” for the Armenians.
    However, the time has come for their ship to run aground. They will either travel the judicial path together with us or their allegations will lose all credibility.
    Naturally they are likely to stick to their traditional path for some more time but each time they repeat their allegations the answer they will get will be, “Come and meet us in court.” If they happen to say, “But we have already taken this issue before the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ),” the Turkish side will remind them that the ICTJ is merely a nongovernmental organization, specializing in South Africa’s reconciliation process, and not a judicial body. The Turkish side will point out that the identity of the “bright” lawyer that drafted the ICTJ paper without discussing this issue with anyone has been kept secret. Turkey will also say, “If that is all you are putting forth as a thesis we see better now why you have avoided court action on this issue all these years.” Then one day they will come to court. And they will regret it. They will see how the century’s greatest baloney will evaporate. It is more probable than not that they will in fact end up as the side that “owes” Turkey something. Armenian gangs killed over 500,000 Turks. We have the names, addresses, ages and sexes of the victims. The Russian archives will be another source of evidence. Having discerned that possibility, the Armenian side is already launching an intimidation campaign, claiming that the Russians were the Turks’ accomplices in the Armenian “genocide.” Meanwhile, we will seek access to the archives the Patriarchate moved to Jerusalem, the archives of the Dashnaks in Boston and Armenia’s official archives. Naturally we will demand verification of the authenticity of the relevant documents by a committee of international experts. In fact, Armenia does not have to be invited to court, since that would further upset the Armenian people, who are already feeling victimized. Instead, we could invite France to court for having acknowledged the “genocide” by passing a law to this effect, or the United States if the U.S. Congress passes a similar resolution. Going to court is a risky business in any case. One can never know what kind of conclusion the court will reach. For this reason we should congratulate Mr. Gul and the Justice and Development Party (AKP) government for courageously taking political responsibility for such a step, and do our best to prepare an impeccable file for this greatest of all court cases.

  26. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    And another – please accept my apologies, I found all of these articles to have some level-headedness that is lacking in most discussions on this matter:

    A $12 billion history lesson

    By Timothy W. Ryback and Elazar Barkan

    Monday, February 25, 2008
    Last week, a senior French official flew to Istanbul to discuss Turkey’s exclusion of Gaz de France from an $12 billion pipeline project – designed to bring Central Asian oil directly to European markets – because of recent French legislation making it a criminal offense to deny that the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Armenians in 1915 constituted genocide.

    The Turkish government clearly takes history seriously. Just last October, when the United States Congress considered a bill similar to the French genocide legislation – without the punitive dimension – Turkey threatened to restrict airspace vital to the American military efforts in Iraq. Washington backed off.

    Turkey objects to the term “genocide” to describe the historical tragedy it calls the “events of 1915.” Ankara is resolute in defending this stance and has mirror legislation to that of France making it a criminal offense to use the term “genocide.” Turkey does not deny that hundreds of thousands of men, women and children perished in a series of population transfers across a rugged mountain region, but it blames the deaths on the tragic combination of bureaucratic ineptness and particularly harsh climatic conditions.

    For Armenians, as well as nearly two dozen other countries ranging from Australia to Venezuela, this was “genocide” plain and simple. This clash of historical narratives has become more than academic, as France and the United States have recently learned.

    George Orwell warned us about mixing history and politics, but after nearly a century, it is perhaps time for governments and scholars to cooperate in resolving this dispute by establishing an international historical commission to explore these issues in a sustained, comprehensive and, most important, cooperative matter, as the Czechs and Germans did with their joint historical commission in the 1990s when similar tensions strained their relations.

    Unlike the Nazi persecution of the Jews, which was determined to have constituted genocide by an international tribunal in Nuremburg, and subsequent tribunals that made similar determinations for Rwanda and for Srebrenica in the former Yugoslavia, the Armenian genocide, or “events of 1915,” has never been subjected to similar international historical or legal scrutiny. There have been judgments rendered on the tragedy, including expert opinions by the International Center for Transitional Justice and the International Association of Genocide Scholars. But there has never been a formal independent historical commission that has had access to the complete historical record or involved teams of scholars from Turkey and Armenia, like the Czech-German historical commission established to resolve historical disputes between those two countries or numerous similar commissions.

    There have been several attempts in recent years by Turks and Armenians to address the issue collectively. In 2001, a Turkish-Armenian reconciliation commission was launched to great fanfare only to collapse a year later. In 2005, the late Hrant Dink joined 30 Turkish and Armenian scholars and journalists at the Salzburg Global Seminar to explore ways of advancing Turkish-Armenian dialogue. Last April, a group of Nobel laureates led by Elie Wiesel published an appeal for “understanding and reconciliation” that was publicly greeted by Turkish scholars in an open letter.

    In a gesture toward dialogue, the Turkish government published full-page advertisements in major newspapers, including this one, calling for a joint Turkish-Armenian historical commission. And just this month, the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, reiterated this position at an international security conference in Munich.

    Perhaps the time has come to take Turkey up on its offer and establish an independent, international historical commission that can explore the historical facts and legal definitions in a neutral and sustained manner and render an independent and informed opinion.

    Such a commission would need to have the historical authority and legal expertise to review the historical facts and deliberate on the legal implications. It would need the cooperation of Turkey and Armenia as well as Russia, France, Britain, the United States and other countries to provide access to pertinent archives. And it would benefit from access to private archives that contain relevant documents.

    History is best when it is researched and debated before it is lobbied and legislated. It will be a costly undertaking, both in terms of time and resources – there is no question about that – but as France and the United States know, unresolved historic legacies often come with an even higher price tag.

    Elazar Barkan and Timothy W. Ryback co-direct the Institute for Historical Justice and Reconciliation.

  27. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    Here is the information on the “intellectuals” profits from signing the petition:

    Prof. Dr. Ahmet Insel 107,414,00 Euro
    Helsinki Yurttaslar Dernegi

    Prof. Dr. Ibrahim Kaboglu 193,548,73 Euro
    Cagdas Yasami Destekleme Dernegi

    Mine Krkkanat 70,000,00 Euro
    Gazeteci Yazar

    Prof. Dr. Atilla Yayla 449,620,40 Euro
    Liberal Dusunce Dernegi

    Serafettin Elci 107,414,00 Euro
    Helsinki Yurttaslar Dernegi

    Ertugrul Kurkcu 809,760,00 Euro
    IPS Iletisim Vakf

    Prof. Dr. Halil Berktay 107,414,00 Euro
    Helsinki Yurttaslar Dernegi

    Etyen Mahcupyan 1,032,921,35 Euro
    Ekonomik ve Toplumsal Tarih Vakf

    Mehmet Ali Birand 107,414,00 Euro
    Helsinki Yurttaslar Dernegi

    Adalet Agaoglu 107,414,00 Euro
    Helsinki Yurttaslar Dernegi

    MAZLUMDER 81,735,15 Euro

    Murat Belge 107,414,00 Euro
    Helsinki Yurttaslar Dernei

    Regards,
    Leyla

  28. J Avatar
    J

    You know what the main problem is, no one answers the questions in a straight forward way. We answer your questions in every possible way but you people just copy and paste your same responses every time. Yeah, I’m talking to my Turkish brethren out there. I’m gonna make a list of questions and if you can answer ALL OF THEM perfectly, I will consider taking your “advice”. If not, go play your silly games with your government which recently attacked the intellectuals that started the apology campaign.
    You say Armenians did so many things … well can you tell me WHY? The reason we are still alive after Turkey’s “War” plans is because we fought back. You picked the wrong nation to mess with. I don’t want revenge; I’m smarter then that, rather I want you people to accept the past. We all want to move on and don’t say “YOU DON’T WANT TO MOVE ON” because it makes me laugh every time. I’m sure you people are smarter then that. Cut me the BS.

    Why are so many posts being deleted, why is Turkey not opening IT’S archives, why does Mr. K answer only what he likes, why do Turks attack Armenians on YouTube when completely unnecessary, why do you people shun away all our questions? Do you think we’re blind? We see what you do and so does the WHOLE WORLD. So many witnesses, so much proof, so much archival material, so many countries that have accepted the Genocide …. Let’s start by questioning EVERY FACT and then let’s see where the lies come from. These aren’t my questions though … this is just the intro. Let’s see if you’ve got the balls to back what you say.

    I have so many Turkish friends I would take a bullet for and you’re screwed up government and mentality has gone too far. Let’s see what you’re made of. Yeah, I’m talking to you Mr. K. Let’s see if you’ll be able to close your eyes on all the facts.

    Are you ready?

  29. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    J, you say: “You know what the main problem is, no one answers the questions in a straight forward way. We answer your questions in every possible way but you people just copy and paste your same responses every time.”

    Here are two questions no Armenian has ever answered:

    1_ How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during World War One?

    2- Were Armenian clergymen themselves directly involved in those murders, raids, and rebellions?

  30. J Avatar
    J

    Sorry if my post isn’t related to your latest posts Leyla, it was waiting moderation for a few seasons, lol, for some reason.

  31. Edmond Avatar
    Edmond

    I wonder if Leyla wears a headscarf.

    Very clever Mr. kirlikovali. You allow your guards to attack while you assess the situation from outside. Either way I have said what I wanted to say for now. It is obvious that none of you will accept the facts and you will continue spreading your poison. On closing I will just add that there has to be an awakening from within.

    This is not an Armenian issue but a Turkish one. Hrant Dink tried to show you the way but you killed him. Awakening will eventually come, how Turks get there and what their leaders will do will surely make the difference between a smooth transition and expectance compared to a chaotic confusion and anger directed at Turkish Government.

    Thank you.
    Goodbye.

  32.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    Leyla,

    Kirlikovali

  33. juif Avatar
    juif

    Leyla,

    Kirlikovali claims his family was persecuted by Greeks, not Armenians. Why would someone with no conceivable link to Eastern Anatolia be such a racist when it comes to Armenains? Why does he not scream daily racial insults against Greeks as he does against Armenians?

    Probably because the very real Genocides against the Greeks of Pontus, Smyrna and elsewhere are not a political issue on the front burner, as is recognition by the United States of the AG. He writes not from real or bogus family pain suffered if at all in 1912 in Greece, but merely as a willing tool of the Turkish state atack machine, which provides this portly, comfortable California businessman the comfort, safety and prestige he lacks in his beloved Turkey.

  34. J Avatar
    J

    1_ How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during World War One?

    I think you asked the question in a wrong way. What you mean to say is, how many Turks did the Armenians kill during the Armenian Genocide. Well, I don’t know the exact number but I’m sure there were many otherwise, we wouldn’t be alive today. I’m sure there were many. Just not enough to call it a Genocide. What did you expect us to do? Sit around and eat Kabab?

    2- Were Armenian clergymen themselves directly involved in those murders, raids, and rebellions?

    I think so, yeah. Your point is? I can ask the opposite to you. Were the Turks that killed my people officers, guards, clergyman, etc.? Or will you just say the rebels were the ones to blame, lol?

    What you don’t get is that you keep asking the same two questions. Why don’t you start answering MY questions and the questions of millions of people out there. Or does that just not work for you? Again, Are you ready? Forget your questions, their childish. Of course Turks were killed. Let’s get down to business.

  35. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    You can think or do whatever you like. You cannot escape from the following questions, though, because I will not let you or any other Armenian off the hook that easily. Sear these two questions in your brain, so that you have your answers when and if you ever come back:

    1_ How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during World War One?

    2- Were Armenian clergymen themselves directly involved in those murders, raids, and rebellions?

  36. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    Here are two questions no Armenian has ever answered:

    1_ How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during World War One?

    2- Were Armenian clergymen themselves directly involved in those murders, raids, and rebellions?

    If and when you ever come back, be prepared to answer these questions.

  37. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    Edmond,

    I most certainly do not wear a headscarf. I am not religious but do not have a problem with anyone who is provided they do not push their faith down my throat.

    I am a university-educated, modern-thinking woman. I have never met or even had any correspondence with Mr. Kirlikovali. Just because I support his views, it does not mean I am his guard. I suspect he is strong enough.

    I hope that the current government who seems to be clearly on your side is not re-elected. I suspect that if they continue there will be nothing left for the vultures to pick at in Turkey. I don’t think that America or Europe love the Armenians enough to give them anything of Turkey. You are just dreaming. I can assure you that Turkey would feel more pain if anything bad happened to Armenia than Europe or America would, you just seem to be too blind to see this. We have lived together in peace for a thousand years, why would you be so naive to think that in the last hundred years Europe even cares for you. They (mainly France and Russia Empire) even got you to do their dirty work in WW1. You stabbed us in the back at the hope of having your own country, even if you didn’t live in the lands in question. You were happy to exterminate anyone who you felt was in your lands.

    I ask you, how many Turks live in Armenia today? There are hundreds and thousands of Armenians that live in Turkey, a large number of them illegally because there is no hope in their homeland. You have no pity for your own people, why would you have any for Turks?

    Do I scare you Edmond? I don’t take rubbish blindly like so many of you seem to. I would rather research the facts first. I have an Armenian friend that I would happily die for. She is wonderful, she actually discusses this situation with me without either of us demeaning the other. Pity we can’t all do that.

    I would like to add to Mr. Kirlikovali’s questions, if you can prove that the so-called genocide occured please open up the Armenian archives just as the Russians and the Turks have done and take this matter to the international courts.

    Leyla

  38. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    Edmond,

    I would like to discuss Hrant Dink. Mr. Dink had wanted the issue of the deaths in 1915 to be sorted out between the two nations. He did not want the Emperialists to be involved in any way. If you want to find his murderers, I suggest you look into the CIA or the Armenian Diaspora who most certainly hated him with a vengeance.

    Mr. Dink was one of our own. He as a Turkish Armenian and he was more honourable than many an Armenian outside of Turkey. He really did want peace. I find it offensive that the people that hated him so much once upon a time are now supporting him and twisting his views to suit their own.

    I would also like to add that the Turkish Armenians that remain in Turkey are more loyal to Turkey than many a Turk. We are proud to have had him and feel pain at losing him. Maybe you should use him as a role model?

    Leyla

  39. Edmond Avatar
    Edmond

    I thought I was done with you guys.

    Leyla, you said “Do I scare you Edmond?” Yes, you got me shaking in my boots lady. BTW, do all female Turks sound as arrogant as you, I hope not?

    You flatter yourself leyla, and as far as your comment on the headscarf…. “I most certainly do not wear a headscarf, I am university Educated”. Why you say certainly not? Do you consider women with headscarf uneducated? A European woman wouldn’t say what you said and would have more respect for women’s rights. No wonder the Muslim world see you as a trader, an insult to Islam. It is obvious you have rejected and lost your roots Mrs. “wannabe European”. What a joke.

    What I said about Hrant Dink was a direct quote from him. “Turks need an awakening from within”. Mr. Dink said that not me!! Let me repeat. Mr. Dink made that statement, not me.
    Not surprisingly enough though it appears that it is you Madam who has missed his true message to Turks. Can you understand with all your fancy education what he is trying to tell y’ll??
    You say Turks are Armenians best friends?! You must also major in comedy.

    I suggest you open the Kemal files to your public (If the Turks ever get the guts to pull that Turkishness blanket from their heads that they are hiding under like an Ostridge with its head buried in sand) before asking us to spoon feed you documented World History. We don’t have the patience or the desire to teach you.

    For now, as I have said before, we do not expect anything from Turkey. The day will come that we will hand you back your butt on a silver platter legally in front of the whole world. Justice is a dish best served cold, and it will become very cold in Turkish parliament. We can sit down a talk then if you like; you can bring your forged documents then.

    Mr.K, I am disappointed…..I was expecting a lot more out of you than you repeatedly asking the same two stupid questions that has been already answered. Maybe you should answer them yourself…this should be amusing.

  40. ergun@cox.net Avatar
    ergun@cox.net

    1. Deception exposed: JDA, “the new Andonian”: J, jd, jda, juif, manukyan,pierre, hasan, burcu, john, bob, and a million other fake names you fabricate to suit your lies and distortions; first of all, I want readers here and elsewhere to know that all of these names (more than 250 in my last count) are all one and the same person! This is how Armenians work… Through deception… I even have docoumented how this person creates a fake debate among these fake names yielding the inevitable conclusion that this jda, the swindler, must be right. I have personally smoked him out in various other blogs. In the true “Andonian tradition” where deception, fabrication, lies, and distortions are cherished, cultivated, and worshipped, this jda person takes the cake. In my experience with similar types, this jda character exemplifies the Diaspora Armenians. So, if you have always felt comfortable taking the Armenian claims at face value, please step back a second and think about this jda character.

    2. Metamorphosis: “JDA the swindler” first tried to establish a façade of soft, loving, caring, considerate, balanced writer referring to things like how he respected Muslims and Turks. When I reminded him “the Six T’s of the Turkish-Armenian conflict”, however, “JDA the swindler” showed his real colors: racist, hateful, ruthless, scheming, and deceptive. I could almost see, through his writings, him frothing at the mouth with anger and hatred. But what sent him truly ballistic were the two questions, among many others, I asked him: How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during World War One? Did the Armenian clergymen take part in the killings? He rapidly went through the stages like those flashy Las Vegas neon signs; shock, surprise, disavowal, ignorance, denial, insults, libel, ridicule, intimidation, and threats. His answer below represents the final phase: acknowledgement, perhaps a bit loose, but nevertheless, significant. Then shall come his apology, which might take some time, but hey, I am a patient man.

    3. JDA thinks everyone is like him: If someone writes supporting my views, he or she must be my accomplices because that’s how Armenian writers work the blogs. He simply cannot understand that there are many people out there who do not agree with JDA’s bogus genocide and incensed enough to write about it. JDA is a lonely cyber stalker, in a way like Ted Ted Kaczynski the unabomber, so he has to create his imaginary friends supporting his case. Being a pathological liar, jda has no problems with multiple personalities. Deception comes natural to him.

    4. JDA & His many fake names: I asked him many times: why do you write under fake names? Are you ashamed of being an Armenian? You shouldn’t be. What exactly are you protecting and from whom? I write for 30+ years with my own Turkish name of which I am proud. Besides, the Armenian terrorism targets those who refute their claims of bogus genocide and Armenian terrorist groups (ASALKA, JCAG, ARA, etc. etc.) killed 40+ Turkish diplomats and bombed more than 200 Turkish buildings around the globe since 1973. They don’t target deceptive Armenians like you. There has never been a reciprocating terror movement among the Turks. Not then (1877-1920)… Not now (1973 to present)… Dink murder was an exception, rather than a rule, which was condemned by all Turk, young and old. So it cannot be terror. Why are you hiding behind fake names?

    5. JDA the fascist: JDA likes talking about how he respects freedom of thought but it is only for show. The moment someone else, like me for instance, starts writing facts from verifiable sources, refuting the bogus genocide claims and exposing Armenian hate crimes during WWI and now, Armenian war crimes during WWI and now in Azerbaijan, Armenian terrorism (1877-1920 and then again 1973 to present), and Armenian falsifications, he writes feverishly asks the blog-moderators to “silence Kirlikovali”. He writes he doesn’t understand why respectable blogs like so-and-so would give so much space to a genocide denier like Kirlikovali. JDA is pathetic, isn’t he?

    6. JDA tries many lies to see which one might stick. When he first encountered the taste of my pen, he said I was a Turkish government agent who uses material written by paid lobbyists and that I had no idea of my own. When he discovered http://www.turkla.com then he changed his tune to racist and gray wolf. When he discovered I wrote condemnations of Dink killing at my column, he changed his tune to ridiculing what I write. He still cannot decide what I am. Cannot the y Turkish-American community find a “better” representative? He thinks someone assigned me this task and/or paying me for it (after all, that’s the Armenian way.) Or that perhaps I am elected to this position? He apparently has no idea of the one trait of the Turk that most compelled the Turk establish 17 empires, nations, and/or states in three continents in the history of the past five thousand years: “Turk : fiercely independent”. You don’t cry, beg, curry favors, scream, shout, make noise, then beg more, cry more, and make more noise, backstab, cheat, lie, deceive, worry about backups, buy and sell allegiances, and backstab more… You act! You rely on your own inner strentgh! Support comes when it comes; you don’t sleep over it. Everyone can win when there is sufficient resources, might, support, and backup. Turk does it without these. You will never ever understand what I am saying here. Because, jda, you are who you are.

    7. Thanks for finally acknowledging Armenian hate crimes, war crimes, and culpability in the Turkish-Armenian conflict which proves that it was an ‘inter-communal warfare fough by Christian and Muslim irregular forces”, as put by the 69 historians on a May 19, 1985 public statement published in the New York Times and Washington Post. My question was “How many Muslims, mostly Turks, did Armenians kill during World War One?” Your response was “…Well, I don’t know the exact number but I’m sure there were many otherwise, we wouldn’t be alive today. I’m sure there were many…” Indeed, there were many; 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, met their tragic ends at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries, i.e. your predecessors, jda, according to the Turkish Historical Society (all documented!)
    How can it be a genocide if the alleged perpetrators were killed in larger numbers than the alleged victims? Again according to the THS, 54,000 Armenian lost their lives during the Tereset (temporaray resettlement) of which number only 8,400 Armenians were documented to be hate crimes, the rest being due to epidemics, starvation, and other elements. This number was elevated magically to 200,000+ in the March 29, 1919 Paris Peace Conference subcommittee report, which was jacked up to 600,000 two months later by Armenian printers who printed a poster soliciting help only for “poor, starving Armenians”, not “poor, starving Muslims, or Turks, like my grandparents”. That same number was further blown to one million in 1950s, 2 million in 1970s, as high as 3 million in 1990s, finally falling back to 1.5 million nowadays, with still too many referring to the figure of “more than a million.” We all know that the dead do not multiply and that they all came from the figure of 54,000. How can this happe, you ask? Well, just think about a community made up of jda’s and Andonians! That’s how…Conclusion: As jda also says, many Muslims were killed by Armenians (524,000 mostly hate killings) and Armenians were killed by Turks (54,000 including 8,400 hate killings). How can this be called genocide? How can this be anything other than a civil war?

    8. JDA cruelly ridicules other people’s pain: Then jda says this “What did you expect us to do? Sit around and eat Kabab?” Apparently, killing Turks beats sitting around and eating “Kebap”s. What can you say to a cruel person like this? There is a Turkish saying “Yuzune tukursen yagmur yagdi der.” Loose translation: “ Even if you spit in his face, he will claim it rained.” So, I’ll save my spit. I will just note how hurt I am that he desecrated the silent memory of 3 million Ottoman-Muslims, mostly Turks, who lost their lives during WWI (this number includes 1.2 million who died in Eastern Anatolia due to all causes and the 524,000 who were murdered by the Armenian revolutionaries and gangs. )

    9. “Were Armenian clergymen themselves directly involved in those murders, raids, and rebellions?” I asked. JDA responded “I think so, yeah. Your point is?” Again ridiculing the Turks who lost their lives at the hands of gun toting, bomb exploding, murderous Armenian clergymen, bishops, priests, and monks. I am glad JDA at least spoke the truth here because I have Armenian documentation as to what Armenian clergyman joined what armed raid, where and when. JDA saved me some time or I was getting ready to drown him in verifiable, documented facts proving Armenian clergy involvement in mass murder and mayhem B-E-F-O-R-E 1-9-1-5 !

    10. Now that even JDA agrees that many Turks were killed by Armenians and that even Armenian clergymen murdered many Turks, before 1915, the term genocide cannot apply to what is clearly a serious of rebellions, raids, and acts of terrorism and treason which can only be described as a civil war. Case closed.

    11. Apparently, the French parliament must have thought the same because a last minute inclusion into a “memory law” seeking to punish deniers dashed all Armenian hopes: only those events which have been deemed a genocide by a court verdict will be covered by this law. In other words, people like JDA can shout all they want. At the end of the day, they will be asked “Where is the court verdict saying it was a genocide?” No court verdict, no genocide. Isn’t that what we have been saying all along? Didn’t I even write essays with that same title? Thank you, France! Even you woke up at the tricky Armenians’ shameless lies.

    12. Some say that “Appel the Blois” (The Blois Appeal,) a recent call by French historians and intellectuals that the legislators keep their hands of history scholarship, must have had a decisive and lasting impact on the works of the Armenian falsifiers and Turk haters. I also signed that appeal and I agree with this claim, although time will tell why the French decided to close the door at the last minute and leave the noisy and nagging Armenian beggars out in the cold.

    13. In my next posting, I will cover the Armenian involvement in the Balkans. You will be stunned with the facts! Stay tune.

  41. J Avatar
    J

    You can think or do whatever you like. You cannot escape from the following questions, though, because I will not let you or any other Armenian off the hook that easily.

    And neither will I let you off MY hook. I asked you a question, be kind enough to answer Professor.
    Sear these two questions in your brain, so that you have your answers when and if you ever come back:
    Lol, don’t worry, I’ll be coming back. What do you take me for? And I answered your pitiful questions, get a life and answer some proper questions. It’s a loooonnnggg list and I’ve got all the time in the world.

    I hope that the current government who seems to be clearly on your side is not re-elected. I suspect that if they continue there will be nothing left for the vultures to pick at in Turkey. I don’t think that America or Europe love the Armenians enough to give them anything of Turkey. You are just dreaming. I can assure you that Turkey would feel more pain if anything bad happened to Armenia than Europe or America would, you just seem to be too blind to see this.

    Aw, you’re breaking my heart, really, lol.
    We have lived together in peace for a thousand years, why would you be so naive to think that in the last hundred years Europe even cares for you. They (mainly France and Russia Empire) even got you to do their dirty work in WW1. You stabbed us in the back at the hope of having your own country, even if you didn’t live in the lands in question. You were happy to exterminate anyone who you felt was in your lands.

    WOW, now you’re starting to sound smart. I’d love to know how you’re gonna back your pitiful view that Armenia stabbed your backs. Are you just gonna say, “It was WW1” like all your pals or do you have a better story?

    I ask you, how many Turks live in Armenia today? There are hundreds and thousands of Armenians that live in Turkey, a large number of them illegally because there is no hope in their homeland. You have no pity for your own people, why would you have any for Turks?

    HACHUU, sorry, I’m allergic to bullshit. Most of the Armenians in Turkey are there because they didn’t leave after the Genocide. There were also so many Armenians that were married and got married to Turks. Their children NATURALLY grew up in Turkey. I agree, Armenia is going through a lot, it’s only independent for 18 years but we’re still trying hard to move on, just like every other nation. That gives you no right to blabber the way you do. Moving on…

    Do I scare you Edmond? I don’t take rubbish blindly like so many of you seem to. I would rather research the facts first.

    Why don’t you give it a try? How do you know we aren’t right? Where do you get your assumptions? Or do they just….come with the neighborhood? Listen to what you’re saying.

    I have an Armenian friend that I would happily die for. She is wonderful, she actually discusses this situation with me without either of us demeaning the other. Pity we can’t all do that.

    I can imagine what you do to her if she doesn’t agree with you. I’d like to actually know what you two say to each other.

    I would like to add to Mr. Kirlikovali’s questions, if you can prove that the so-called genocide occured please open up the Armenian archives just as the Russians and the Turks have done and take this matter to the international courts.

    What archives have the Turks opened? The ones in which they burn evidence slowly, slowly, everyday? We have enough proof to sink you in your lies. When the day comes and the truth arises, I don’t pity you not because you didn’t know what happened and believed your gov. but because you talk too big.

    I would like to discuss Hrant Dink. Mr. Dink had wanted the issue of the deaths in 1915 to be sorted out between the two nations. He did not want the Emperialists to be involved in any way. If you want to find his murderers, I suggest you look into the CIA or the Armenian Diaspora who most certainly hated him with a vengeance.

    You clearly are the most stubborn and confused person I have ever had the misfortune of meeting. I think it was the CIA that was holding Turkish flags behind the murderer after he got caught, as well. Armenia loved Hrant Dink. We cared for him, we continue to honor him today, and you Turks still haven’t realized what a man you have lost. Stop hiding your hate.

    1. Deception exposed: JDA, “the new Andonian”: J, jd, jda, juif, manukyan,pierre, hasan, burcu, john, bob, and a million other fake names you fabricate to suit your lies and distortions; first of all, I want readers here and elsewhere to know that all of these names (more than 250 in my last count) are all one and the same person!

    Wow, smart ass, you’re really using your brains there. Someone get this clown out of here please. I use the letter J as a nickname (Jason), I’m suddenly a different person.

    13. In my next posting, I will cover the Armenian involvement in the Balkans. You will be stunned with the facts! Stay tune.

    I just can’t wait for more bullshit, my legs are just shaking.

  42. J Avatar
    J

    Mustafa “Ataturk” Kemal
    Founder of the modern Turkish Republic in 1923 and revered throughout Turkey, in an interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner, talking about former Young Turks in his country… “These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule.”

    Adolf Hitler
    While persuading his associates that a Jewish holocaust would be tolerated by the west stated… “Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?”

    Yossi Beilin
    Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister. April 27, 1994 on the floor of the Knesset in response to a TV interview of the Turkish Ambassador 4/27/1994 – “It was not war. It was most certainly massacre and genocide, something the world must remember… We will always reject any attempt to erase its record, even for some political advantage.”

    Gerald Ford
    Addressing the US House of Representatives. “Mr. Speaker, with mixed emotions we mark the 50th anniversary of the Turkish genocide of the Armenian people. In taking notice of the shocking events in 1915, we observe this anniversary with sorrow in recalling the massacres of Armenians and with pride in saluting those brave patriots who survived to fight on the side of freedom during World War I. – Congressional Record, pg. 8890”

    Enver Pasha
    One of the triumvirate rulers publicly declared on 19 May 1916… 5/19/1916 – “The Ottoman Empire should be cleaned up of the Armenians and the Lebanese. We have destroyed the former by the sword, we shall destroy the latter through starvation.”

    Enver Pasha
    One of the triumvirate rulers publicly declared on 19 May 1916… 5/19/1916 – “You are greatly mistaken. We have this country absolutely under our control. I have no desire to shift the blame onto our underlings and I am entirely willing to accept the responsibility myself for everything that has taken place.”

    Talat Pasha
    In a conversation with Dr. Mordtmann of the German Embassy in June 1915… 6/1/1915 – “Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate (grundlich aufzaumen) its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention. What on earth do you want? The question is settled. There are no more Armenians.”

    Cemal Pasha
    To a German officer upon seeing the deportations in Mamure said… “I am ashamed of my nation (Ich schame mich fur meine Nation)”

    Cemal Pasha
    Minister of the Interior of Turkey publicly declared on March 15 that on the basis of computations undertaken by Ministry Experts… “800,000 Armenian deportees were actually killed…by holding the guilty accountable the government is intent on cleansing the bloody past.”

    Prince Abdul Mecid
    Heir-Apparent to the Ottoman Throne, during an interview… “I refer to those awful massacres. They are the greatest stain that has ever disgraced our nation and race. They were entirely the work of Talat and Enver. I heard some days before they began that they were intended. I went to Istanbul and insisted on seeing Enver. I asked him if it was true that they intended to recommence the massacres which had been our shame and disgrace under Abdul Hamid. The only reply I could get from him was: ‘It is decided. It is the program.’”

    Grand Vezir Damad Ferid Pasha
    Equivalent rank in the US would be head of the cabinet I think. He described the treatment of the Armenians as… “A crime that drew the revulsion of the entire humankind.”

    Mustafa Arif
    Minister of Interior stated on 13 December 1918… 12/13/1918 – “Surely a few Armenians aided and abetted our enemy, and a few Armenian Deputies committed crimes against the Turkish nation… it is incumbent upon a government to pursue the guilty ones. Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminate them.”

    Henry Morgenthau, Sr.
    U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story, 1919 1/1/1919 – “When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact. . . . I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915.”

    British Viscount James Bryce
    October 6, 1915, speech 10/6/1915 – “The massacres are the result of a policy which, as far as can be ascertained, has been entertained for some considerable time by the gang of unscrupulous adventurers who are now in possession of the Government of the Turkish Empire. They hesitated to put it in practice until they thought the favorable moment had come, and that moment seems to have arrived about the month of April.”

    Count Wolff-Metternich
    German Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire July 10, 1916, cable to the German Chancellor 7/10/1916 – “In its attempt to carry out its purpose to resolve the Armenian question by the destruction of the Armenian race, the Turkish government has refused to be deterred neither by our representations, nor by those of the American Embassy, nor by the delegate of the Pope, nor by the threats of the Allied Powers, nor in deference to the public opinion of the West representing one-half of the world.”

    Theodore Roosevelt
    May 11, 1918, letter to Cleveland Hoadley Dodge 5/11/1918 – “. . . the Armenian massacre was the greatest crime of the war, and the failure to act against Turkey is to condone it . . . the failure to deal radically with the Turkish horror means that all talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the world is mischievous nonsense.”

    Herbert Hoover
    The Memoirs of Herbert Hoover, 1952 1/1/1952 – “The association of Mount Ararat and Noah, the staunch Christians who were massacred periodically by the Mohammedan Turks, and the Sunday School collections over fifty years for alleviating their miseries—all cumulate to impress the name Armenia on the front of the American mind.”

    Jimmy Carter
    May 16, 1978, White House ceremony 5/16/1978 – “It is generally not known in the world that, in the years preceding 1916, there was a concerted effort made to eliminate all the Armenian people, probably one of the greatest tragedies that ever befell any group. And there weren’t any Nuremberg trials.”

    Ronald Reagan
    April 22, 1981, proclamation 4/22/1981 – “Like the genocide of the Armenians before it, and the genocide of the Cambodians which followed it, . . . the lessons of the Holocaust must never be forgotten.”

    George Bush Sr.
    April 20, 1990, speech in Orlando, Florida 4/20/1990 – “[We join] Armenians around the world [as we remember] the terrible massacres suffered in 1915–1923 at the hands of the rulers of the Ottoman Empire. The United States responded to this crime against humanity by leading diplomatic and private relief efforts.”

    Prime Minister of Great Britain (1940-45, 1951-55)”In 1915 the Turkish Government began and ruthlessly carried out the infamous general massacre and deportation of Armenians in Asia Minor.” “There is no reasonable doubt that this crime was planned and executed for political reasons.”

    Caroline, Baroness Cox, House of Lords4/1/1999 – “If nations are allowed to commit genocide with impunity, to hide their guilt in a camouflage of lies and denials, there is a real danger that other brutal regimes will be encouraged to attempt genocides. Unless we speak today of the Armenian genocide and unless the Government recognizes this historical fact, we shall leave this century of unprecedented genocides with this blot on our consciences.”

    Admiral Mark L. Bristol, U.S. High Commissioner to Turkey”The Armenians are a race like the Jews-they have little or no national spirit and poor moral character.”

    Prof. Colin Tatz, Director, Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies1/1/1996 – “The Turkish denial [of the Armenian Genocide] is probably the foremost example of historical perversion. With a mix of academic sophistication and diplomatic thuggery — of which we at Macquarie University have been targets — the Turks have put both memory and history into reverse gear.”

    Stanley Cohen, Professor of Criminology, Hebrew University, Jerusalem12/1/1995 – “The nearest successful example [of collective denial] in the modern era is the 80 years of official denial by successive Turkish governments of the 1915-17 genocide against the Armenians in which 1.5 million people lost their lives. This denial has been sustained by deliberate propaganda, lying and cover-ups, forging documents, suppression of archives, and bribing scholars.”

  43. jda Avatar
    jda

    Mr Kirlikovali et al,

    Sorry to disappoint, but the only name I use here is jda. I am not j, or the others. More than one person disagreees with you. The point is not who any of us are, it is the facts we cite, and the arguments we make. An idiot can be right, and a propaganda-soaked toady wrong, even if he holds a masters degree in how to make resins.

    Mr Kirlikovali, in your female hysterics above, you write that you protested the death of Hrant Dink, as well you should. But, in the January `19, 2007 edition of Turkish Digest, you attributed the death to “anti-Turks” as does the “university-trained” Leyla today, by which you and she mean Armenians, or maybe now MOSSAD, since Israel is now on the official deep state shit list. Not that you are a decision maker. You’re just a stooge.

    There is no evidence of an “anti-Turk assassin, but there is plentiful evidence, including admissions by the killer, that he and those in his conspiracy were all fascist nationalists, rather like the others who persecuted Dink to death.

    It is easy to be a superpatriot in Orange County California. If you love the Turkish race and nation (whatever that is) so much, why not repatriate yourself, buy yourself some grey dachshunds (grey wolves not available) and move to the home of 17 Empires and the occasional bloody coup?. You don’t belong in a country where brotherhood and freedom of speech is prized, and race hatred is anathema.

  44. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    JDA, you say ” You don’t belong in a country…” So now you decide who belongs to the US and who doesn’t? And you expel me because you don’;t like my views? What a racist bastard you are! Perhaps you should look into the mirror to see who belongs or doesn’t belong to a country where freedom of thought is revered.

    You also sai “Turks don’t have a sense of humor…” That’s another racist remark.

    BTW, do Yanikian, Sassoonian, Topalian, Pinnocchian, and many other terrorists, as well as you and million other “ghost friends of yours” that appear under million fake names you fabricate, where do you belong? terrorists hall of fame?

    The best answer to the Armenian backsatbbers, liars, beggars, and terrorists actually came for the least expected source: the French parliament !

    In a last minute addition, they said “only genocides recognized by a court verdict \” shall be included in the memory laws.

    Ha! Ha!

    Next time you call me or anyone else who refutes Armenian lies a “genocide denier”, I will ask what genocide? Show me a court verdict… or shut up!

  45. El Mexicano Avatar
    El Mexicano

    Orale all, orale,
    Was just reading this from the internet, where I have come across numerous articles by Mr. Kirlikovali.

    Now Sr. Kirlikovali and other Hayaphobes here, you go one about whether you scare people or not, I do not think the Armenians here fear you at all, otherwise they would not be here on a Turkish forum teaching you some home truths and showing what a racist lies you indeed spread.

    Now there might have been women and children scared during 1915 of you, and of course the Armenians in Maragha, Baku and Sumgait whom your brethren attacked, how else would defenseless innocent civilians feel, if the nation who called them loyal citizens slaughtered them.

    However I digress and am now going to respond to your posts, don’t try to threaten me, it wont work, I do not tolerate intimidation from bullies, braggarts and apologists for racism and mass murderes.

    Now, where to start on the falseness of your claims.
    Allright Muslims deaths, do you know how many Muslims died due to Ottoman Turks, lets thing, the burning of Alexandria, the Mardegh square massacre, ethnic cleansing of Arabs in Hatay, etc.
    The list goes on, how about the fact that your war with Russia led you to kill thousands of Persian men who were part of the Russian Empire.
    So lets ease off the hypocritical crap for a second.

    Now you claim Armenians are racist, you words were “This is how Armenians work… Through deception”
    “If someone writes supporting my views, he or she must be my accomplices because that’s how Armenian writers work the blogs.”

    So all Armenians (especially those “evil” diasporans” are stereotypically like that, wow! That is called racism.
    People, glass houses, stones, hmmm.

    Now say what you will, but in the Ottoman Empire the idea of Pan Turanism was spreading, I think we all know after reading Ziya Gokalp what that means, so lets see, why did Ottomans butcher Armenians. Oh thats right, to Turkify their nation (a policy still used to oppress the Kurds, and do not forget the Dersim and Alevis) and make a Turanic Empire. Now you can argue, and I will send all the Ziya Gokalp, Arp Arslan Turkesh stuff that I can to prove my point.

    So some Armenians maybe rebelled, firme, so what, that makes it justified to “relocate” (i.e slaughter) 1.5 Million Women and Children, can I just remind you that little 3 year old Vartan and Anahit cannot fire large guns, what threats did they pose. Also all Armenian men were drafted into the military and all Armenians were banned to have guns, so what would they kill you with, lamajoun?
    The only Armenians fighting alongside Russians were the Eastern Armenians who were part of the Russian Empire, so I would wager they would fight alongside them. Now saying Dashnaks/Hnchaks/Ramgavars,
    massacred the Turks is impossible, logistically that does not make sense, a small band of guerillas take on the entire Ottoman army and commit murder of Turks is ludicrous

  46. mok10501 Avatar
    mok10501

    Based on the above readings, it appears that Mr. Kırlıkovalı has violated a well known American rule of dealing with the swine . As we say in this country “Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.”

  47. J Avatar
    J

    Mr. K, you have answers and questions to answer. Let’s see what you’ve got my man. Whose going to back you now? Only the truth, if there is a truth.

    Now you can ask yourself, “Why do Armenians get their voices heard so much?” and perhaps get an answer. Why are you silent? Stand up into the light. It’s just you against the truth. Let’s see how far down the rabbit hole you can go.

  48. ergun@cox.net Avatar
    ergun@cox.net

    Fake names, fake claims, fake arguments… From Andonian to jda, it seems, nothing has changed.

  49. jda Avatar
    jda

    Mr. Kirlikovali,

    This hoped-for exchange of views, such as it is, is made nothing more than an exchange of name-callings, chiefly through your daily squeals. Contrary to your belief, I write here only under he name jda.

    And, in reviewing these posts, it is you and other supposed Turkish writers who lead the effort to scream insults. The question is, to what effect?

    The quotes by Ataturk admitting the massacres of millions of Christians are real. The quotes by Vehib Pasa are real. The quotes by Arif are real.
    Your beef is with your ancestors, who admitted what could not be denied.

    The quotes of what you wrote and what Leyla wrote, saying Dink was not killed by Turkish fascists are real. Your fantasy that he was killed by Armenians are shameful and inhumanel.

    I encourage the few readers of these posts to read everything they can, not just one side. Witjhout rancor or racism.

    And, as usual, you misread and exaggerate what I write. I don’t wish to see you expelled. I wish to see your heart unburdened by Nazi-like racism. I question why someone who idealizes Turkey and Turks lives in Orange County. America is a tolerant country where racism is anathema.

    You’re losing. Keep screaming.

  50. J Avatar
    J

    Tell me about it … NOTHING’S changed. The questions are asked as usual and the Turks don’t have anything to say again, as usual. Instead of crying about how many fake names there, try and answer some questions. Or are you just too modest? Your silly posts don’t really say much. If our arguments are fake, your posts are simply rubbish. You wanna say something, say it out loud. This goose chase has gone too far.

  51. jda Avatar
    jda

    Quotes, I have quotes too.

    Ergun, Leyla et al: everytime you write racist, ahistorcal nonsense, Ataturk will follow you into print to correct the lies you spew. The more you say, the more he’ll say. Do you dare to contradict Ataturk?

    Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: In a communication to General Kazim Karabekir, on May 6 1920 about attacking the fledgling Armenian Republic, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (founder of the Turkish Republic) said:
    ·“The Christian world, especially America will turn against us, associating such an attack the possibility of ‘a new Armenian massacre’”[i]
    Kazim Karabekir, Istiklal Harbimiz [Our war of Independence], 1969.
    Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: On September 22 1919, from Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, to Major-General Harbord, the head of the American Military Mission to Armenia:
    ·“Kemal used the 800,000 figure to describe the number of Armenian victims. He, in fact,‘disapproved of the Armenian massacres.’(Ermeni kitlini o da takbih ediyordu).”[ii]
    “Rauf Orbayin Hatiralari” Yakin Tarhimiz [Memoires of Rauf Orbay; Our Contemporary History], 1962.

    Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: On April 24 1920, the day after the inauguration of the new parliament of the Turkish Republic, Ataturk stated:
    ·“The World War I massacres against the Armenians (Ermenilere karşi kitliam)[was] a shameful act (fazahat).”
    “Ataturkün Söylev ve Demerçleri 1918-1938”(The Speeches and Statements of Atatürk) vol.1, 1945.

    Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: In an interview with a French publicist he (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk) inveighed against the Ittihadist chiefs, whom he blamed for the crime against the Armenians:
    ·“They,[the Ittihadist] and their accomplices…deserve the gallows. Why are the Allies delaying having all these rascals hung?”[iv]
    (Maurice Prax,“Constantinople: Lectures pour tous,” 1920).

    Mustafa Kemal Ataturk:
    ·“The massacre and deportation of Armenians was the work of a small committee who had seized the power.”
    “Rauf Orbayin Hatiralari” Yakin Tarhimiz [Memoires of Rauf Orbay; Our Contemporary History], 1962.

    Mustafa Kemal Ataturk: In an interview (Los Angeles Examiner, August 1, 1926) with Swiss journalist, Emile Hildebrand, Ataturk said:
    ·“These leftovers from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been accountable for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the republican rule.”

    Other contemporaneous Turkish voices:

    Turkish Court Martial: To judge Talaat and the other criminals who participated in organizing the genocide of 1915, a Turkish Court Martial was formed on March 8, 1919.
    The following is an abridged version of the accusation against them:
    ·“…the essential point which emerges from the open inquiry is that the crimes committed during the deportations of the Armenians in different locations and at different times were not isolated and local cases. A central force, organized by and composed of persons mentioned here, premeditated and executed them, through secret orders or verbal instructions.
    The court declares unanimously the guilt of the charges mentioned earlier of the accused hereby named, members of the General Council which represent the moral person of the Ittihad. According to the disposition of the law, the Court declares the penalty of death against Talaat, Enver, Djemal and Dr. Nazim, and forced labor for 15 years against Djavid, Moustafa Cherif and Moussa Kiazim.”

    The Great Free-Mason Loge of Turkey: The Great Free-Mason Loge of Turkey voted the following motion:
    ·“The venerable Assembly reached the conclusion that during the last war, brothers Talaat Pasha, Midhat Chukri, Hussein Dhajid, Behaeddine Chekir, forced compatriots to leave their homes, had them assassinated, and stole their goods, and for these reasons they are expelled from the Masonic ranks.”
    c2. The Turkish Journal Yeni Stamboul

    General Vehib Pasha (Bukat): Commander of the Turkish Third Army
    ·“The massacre and destruction of the Armenians and the plunder and pillage of their goods were the result of decisions reached by Ittihad’s Central Committee…The atrocities were carried out under a program that was determined upon and involved a definite case of premeditation.”[ix]
    Records of the 1919 Turkish Military Tribunal
    Mustafa Arif (Deymer): Interior Minister 1918-19

    ·“Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that could surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians and they did exterminate them. This decision was taken by the Central Committee of the Young Turks and was implemented by the Government…The atrocities committed against the Armenians reduced our country to a gigantic slaughterhouse.”
    (VAKIT, 13 Dec. 1918)

    Halide Edib: American Educated Feminist Writer
    ·“…Indeed, we tried to destroy the Armenians through methods peculiar to the Middle Ages. We are living today the saddest and darkest times of our national life.”
    (VAKIT, 22 Oct. 1918)

    “Turks and their history books still cannot accept that there was an organized mass murder of Armenians between 1915 and 1917. Perhaps that is because so many of the murderers and looters were also heroes of the founding of the modern Turkish republic.
    “The founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, spoke on the subject dozens of times; he condemned the massacres, which he called infamous, and demanded that those who were guilty be punished.”

    Falih Rifik Atay, a close friend and confidant of Ataturk, a former Ittihadist, and Kemalist publicist:
    · When discussing the persecution of World War I Armenian massacres, he too saw fit to characterize them as “genocide,” using exactly this composite Greco Latin term, at the same time lamenting the fact that there were:
    “…alternative remedies [to the Armenian problem]; why incur the risk of dishonoring the name of the nation? Mustafa Kemal too was against the genocide.”

    Halil Berktay: Professor of History at the University of Sabanci in Istanbul
    ·

  52. El Mexicano Avatar
    El Mexicano

    Seems like you do not have a reply back, best to not say anything at all dear fellow, accidental rudeness seems to happen alot from your lips

  53. Edmond Avatar
    Edmond

    To Mok10501.

    You said <<<>>>>

    You got it wrong man, this was not a wrestling match…it was a Dogfight and Mr. K fixated on a single target not covering his six and got his starboard wing blown clean off and he is in a flat spin descending at high rate towards imminent impact with terrain………screaming from the top of his lungs “what genocide? Show me a court verdict!!!!” I suggest he ejects before impact.

    Do you have any other intelligent comments to add or shall we leave you alone to play with your pigs.

  54. jda Avatar
    jda

    Ergu,

    Did Ataturk admit repeatedly that the Young Turk government massacred Christian subjects?

    a) Yes, you got me copper
    b) no
    c) you are insulting Turkishness, Turks, Turkish empire, Turkish taffy, Turkish towels,Turkish baths, she-wolves, Turkish victims of bad Swedish cooking, Ergenekon, [pause for reverent bow to Empire founded by two really smart dogs], Turkish coffee, Turkeys, Tom Turkeys, Tom-Toms, Native “New World Turks” Americans, Turkish Rugs [anything I left out?]
    d) now what do I do?

    Ergo and Leyla, I suggest prayer:

    Dear Spirit of Ataurk,

    The enemies surround me, just as the Greeks, French and British surrounded you. I hold aloft the sacred Goat-head, emblem of our sacred Ergenekon racial beginnings, and implore you for help. And could you send it overnnight/urgent on fedex before the 5;30 pm drop-off, please?

    The Armenians just won’t go away, they must have secret Turkish endurance genes. The Greeks, Kurds, Israelis, Hzbullah, Serbs, Macedonians, Lebanese, and Assyrians are pissed at us. And now the Alewis and left-wingers and Professors are acting up. Don’t get me started on the AK party, I’ll be damned if Ms. Turkey wears a headscarf.

    Yesterday some friggin’ Turkish actor admitted killing 10 Greeks on Cyprus while he served in the glorious irreproachable Army. The week before some dingbat in Anatolia gave his farm to the Assyrian Church, saying he realized it had been stolen during the Assyrian Genocide,

    Christ, everybody has a Genocide they say was our fault. Who’s next? Navajos? I forgot, they are Turks, we’re safe there. And I don’t have to tell you about the apology petition, plus its two years since Dink got it. Oof, we said we condemned it, why are they saying its our fault?

    Send us a new PR firm, oh great one. Maybe Oprah is available.

    Soon, the US Congress which the Glendale Tashnags control will defame our ancestors, by saying bad things about our Glorious CUP leaders. By the way, after you kicked the bucket, Hitler was nice enough to send Talat’s remains, but we’ve got them in what looks like the world’s biggest marble wind tunnel. I understand you and he were not the best of friends. Still, can I get some love on this, maybe turn Talat’s final resting place into an upscale downtown destination with a decent Starbucks?

    I pray, oh glorious leader, that I may have the strength to keep copying and pasting in our heroic struggle to confuse and mislead. In the meantime, I’m hoping for April 25 to roll around, think I’ll be in Cabo the week before. Any Armo’s in Mexico?

    Your faithful stooge,

    Goon

    Prayer number 2

    And, oh great one, disasterous news on the genetics front…

    You’ll remember how true Ergenekon story says that a band of 600 suspiciously Nordic looking ur-Turk dudes headed off from some Central Asian shangri-la, to colonize Pontus and Armenia, oops, I mean Turkey. Instead of a AAA guide book, they got their directions from two really scary looking but smart wolf-dogs.

    Well, even though me and my friends and associates all agree that we look just like friggin’ Genghiz Khan down to the droopy ‘staches [named my Cockapoo after Genghiz, gotta represent to my homies], I saw this turd in the genetic punchbowl:

    “DNA results suggests the lack of strong genetic relationship between the Mongols and the Turks despite the close relationship of their languages and shared historical neighborhood. Anatolians do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the ancient Asian Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance, it is not genetically detectable.”

    WTF, super-dude, are they saying we’re just Islamized Turkish speaking Armo’s, Greeks, Arabs and Assyrians? That is totally unacceptable, dude. I am a brave Turk, no way can i be of these other groups. Just ask Turkes, he knows what time it is. He is in Heaven with you even tho he was a Nazi, right?

    Please send me enlightenment, or order the bad scientists all dead, or worsestill, make them all Armenian.

    Thanks again,

    goon.

  55. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    jda,

    Why don’t you tell us all your other fake names here (I counted up to 250 so far in various blogs: j, jd, jda, manukyan, hasan, burcu, bob, john, pierre, edmond, el mexivano, etc. etc.)

    My favorite?

    Why, of course, ararat.

    You mean the mountain, but all I see is the rat!

  56. J Avatar
    J

    This conversation is something I like to call … over. Infact, it never started. It’s been going on for almost a century. Let’s see where Mr. K takes us next. Hope it’s a better looking forum, lol, because that’s the only thing that will be different. As usual, we’ll say something and then Mr. K will disappear into thin air along with his side kicks.

    I hope you understand what this means Mr. K because we do … and I know you do as well.

    End of conversation.

  57. J Avatar
    J

    JDA, I’d like to talk to you personally, is it possible? My email is fantasy.valley@gmail.com.

  58. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    I must say, for a Turkish site there is an awful lot of non-Turkish vitriol coming out. I would love to see my comments being printed on Armenian sites. But so far they did not even have the courtesy to reply to any of my questions. I don’t even bother now.

    As for JDA, you are beginning to sound like a puppet. I am not even going to bother reading this last lot of rubbish you seem to be posting everywhere.

    Do you all remember the Armenian picture of Ataturk sitting and with skulls or dead children (can’t quitre remember) in front of him?? They found out that it was a venomous hoax. In the actual photo he had puppies playing. The Armenians had replaced the puppies with children. What about the painting of the skulls in a heap? They found that to be another Armenian hoax. The painting was done many years before 1915. Both such photos/paintings disappeared very quickly. I wonder how many more there are?

    We have already put our opinions here and for some reason or other you state that we go in circles and can’t answer your questions. You haven’t answered a single question yet.

    Why are you afraid of taking this matter to the international courts. Please, just answer this one question.

    As for me being covered or not, may I state that someone here asked if I was. What kind of a question is that anyway? Does my being covered mean anything? And yes I do find it offensive. Being covered is not even in the Kuran but seems to be rammed down womens throats all the time. I find it submissive and I am certainly not that. Just because I can answer back it does not mean that I am arrogant. It just means that I am not going to respond in the typical Turkish way of being quiet and hoping that justice prevails. So far it hasn’t so we must fight for ourselves.

    By the way JDA, if you mean yourselves as being the pigs that we can play with – why not.. 🙂
    Or am I offending the pigs now?

  59. Leyla Avatar
    Leyla

    Json, you foolish person. I didn’t say my Armenian friend agreed with me. I said that we could actually have civilized discussions with each other. This only shows that there are civilized Armenians as well, which is such a relief. Sometimes we forget there are because of the so many uncivilized ones we seem to come across. She is an Iranian Armenian, that may be the difference. But I know Turkish Armenians and they are also very civilized. Maybe it is where you are raised? I know that the Kurds in Turkey are very much more civilized than the Kurds in Irak and Iran. I do not mean to demean Kurds (I have Kurdish lineage just as many others do too).

    I was kind of hoping we could have civilized discussions here but all we seem to be doing is insulting one another. I can almost see the froth around your mouths. I have a feeling that if we had these discussions face to face you would have tried to give me a beating by now. Isn’t that what you typically do with people who don’t agree with you? Or do you just bully them into submission?

  60. jda Avatar
    jda

    Leyla,

    Do you continue to think Armenians killed Hrant Dink?

    For someone too delicate to respond to name-calling, you seem quite prepared to engage in the practice. So let’s agree to avoid the practice. As for Mr Kirlikovali, he seems to have regressed from posting idiotic fascist ravings to posting childish idiotic fascist ravings. I am afraid there is no cure for his spiritual illness. Maybe he is ashamed of being a Moslem Greek or Balkan. The worst racists usually hate their own origins.

    You note that for aTurkish site, Turkish Forum seems to have attracted an inordinate number of non-Turkish posters. Let me turn that around: for a Turkish site, TF seems to be obsessed with Armenians, as do turkla.com, turkla.com, Turkish digest, and several other sites, on most or all of which Mr. Kirlikovali is an honored if incoherent contributor. If you insult Armenians here, spew hatred, and assert ridiculous claims, expect an answer of the same kind, but with facts. If you respectfully assert your views here, expect a respectful response. Expect to read Ataturk’s multiple comments attacking the 1915 Genocide at the hands of the CUP for starters.

    Je repet: Do you really think Dink was killed by Armenians?

  61. jda Avatar
    jda

    ERGUN AT THE MONGOLIAN BARBECUE RESTAURANT

    Waiter: “Welcome to the Mongolian Barbecue”

    Ergun: “Brother Mongol! It is my deep honor to be here with you, brother in blood and deeds, beneficiary of the Great Mongol-Turkic 17 Empires! I prostrate myself to Genghiz, Timur the Lame and all the Great Khans!
    [Ergun and party get up and bow down next to the table and in the direction of the Japanese ceramic Lucky Cat.]
    Brother Warrior, do you serve Mare’s Blood? I have set up a yurt inthe backyard where I hang with the Cockapoo. I am honored to be here in this place of peace, with no Armenians or Mexicans. ”

    Waiter: “I am Chinese. Do you want to order, we have some nice German Beers you might like.”

  62. jda Avatar
    jda

    GREAT MOMENTS IN DENIALIST POLITICS

    Last year, Ergun and the other fat Genghiz wannabees decided to support Charles Hahn against Adam Schiff, D Glendale. Obviously, Hahn was supposed to get the idea that there was no Armenian, Assyrian or Greek Genocides.
    Maybe he was supposed to say Turks invented baseball and baseball, too.

    Here is what Hahn told the LA Times before he lost:

    “Hahn said his acceptance of support from Kirlikovali and other Turkish groups should not be interpreted as denial of the genocide.

    ‘I do not deny the Armenian genocide,” Hahn said. “I understand that many people died.’ ”

    Guys, thanks for promoting awareness of the Genocide once again.

    Maybe you guys can interest someone running for office in Fiji.

    Tomorrow: learn how Ergun tried to enlist Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck to ease the suffering of his ancestors.

  63. J Avatar
    J

    —–I must say, for a Turkish site there is an awful lot of non-Turkish vitriol coming out. I would love to see my comments being printed on Armenian sites. But so far they did not even have the courtesy to reply to any of my questions. I don’t even bother now.

    Exactly what you’re doing to us. Welcome to the club. And just incase, I answered so enough of your shit. Find another public restroom.

    —–Do you all remember the Armenian picture of Ataturk sitting and with skulls or dead children (can’t quitre remember) in front of him?? They found out that it was a venomous hoax. In the actual photo he had puppies playing. The Armenians had replaced the puppies with children. What about the painting of the skulls in a heap? They found that to be another Armenian hoax. The painting was done many years before 1915. Both such photos/paintings disappeared very quickly. I wonder how many more there are?

    Oh, and don’t tell me, all the other photographs are fake as well. I bet the documental movies recorded back then were fake too. Girl, the only thing freakin fake is your claims.

    —–Why are you afraid of taking this matter to the international courts. Please, just answer this one question.

    That will come soon, don’t worry.

    —–jda,
    Why don’t you tell us all your other fake names here (I counted up to 250 so far in various blogs: j, jd, jda, manukyan, hasan, burcu, bob, john, pierre, edmond, el mexivano, etc. etc.)
    Ladies and Gents, K has officially gone mad. His new name is *drum roles* kKk. I was afraid this might happen.

    —–Json, you foolish person. I didn’t say my Armenian friend agreed with me. I said that we could actually have civilized discussions with each other. This only shows that there are civilized Armenians as well, which is such a relief.

    “Foolish Person”? Lol, you’re the funniest girl I’ve ever met. You know why most Armenians talk peacefully because they know where they are. You expect people to talk aggressively in Turkey? The reason you won’t be able to talk peacefully is because you always imagine Armenians as these hungry wolves. What makes us that way is when I post tremendously powerful quotes in front of your little eyes and you continue your rubbish. You know how many times this k has overlooked questions? THAT’S what pisses people off. You want me to talk peacefully? I will. Let’s see who breaks the calm first from now on.

    —–Sometimes we forget there are because of the so many uncivilized ones we seem to come across. She is an Iranian Armenian, that may be the difference. But I know Turkish Armenians and they are also very civilized.

    And we all know why.

    —–I know that the Kurds in Turkey are very much more civilized than the Kurds in Irak and Iran. I do not mean to demean Kurds (I have Kurdish lineage just as many others do too).

    Well you just did. Turkey killed thousands of Kurds (justify that too if you can) and now you’re siding with an ass who has nothing to do besides check how many nicknames there are in a blog? Your own people were killed. Get a life Leyla. It’s not worth it. Take a better look at what you are saying and we are saying, politics and rude words aside. I would be happy to talk to you peacefully but not with losers like K around. It spoils the atmosphere. He didn’t reply AGAIN to anything. If you want to talk, there will be a proper time and place and it will be an honor talking to you but you have to let go of your girlish attitude. You just lose valuable energy. Get your head straight and let’s see how we’re going to solve these issues. Your childish remarks are funny, not insulting. If you want serious, you’ll have it but you’ll have to sacrifice your ego.

    —–I was kind of hoping we could have civilized discussions here but all we seem to be doing is insulting one another.

    Absolutely agree, and most of it is because we don’t get any freakin answers. If you call K’s remarks “answers” that might be the best joke I’ve heard in my life. Don’t be fooled.

    —–I can almost see the froth around your mouths. I have a feeling that if we had these discussions face to face you would have tried to give me a beating by now.

    Girl, get your head on straight and stop with these mental images you have in your head. You people have been attacking us much, much longer then we have, lol, so stop acting depressed. We all have done our share of arguing.

    —–Isn’t that what you typically do with people who don’t agree with you? Or do you just bully them into submission?

    You seriously need to get your mind straight. We have more important things to do then beat people up. And anyways, no matter how much we beat them, they’ll still never understand so it’s pointless. History is beating you down enough already and I don’t hit girls so you can get that out of your head.

    And by the way, kKk, don’t show your glasses around here until you can prove Ataturk’s own words wrong. Your own “God” says you people were wrong and so does the world.

  64. El Mexicano Avatar
    El Mexicano

    Dear Leya,
    Señorita, you were the one starting with “do you I make you shake in your boots” nonsense.
    You have just generalized all diasporan Armenians which is racist not to mention unscientific in argument and reasoning, your carnal up there, Sr. K, has gone as far as to use Argumentum ad hominem to attack Armenians just because he cannot disprove their claims.

    Also all this worship of Ataturk makes me want to vomit, my dear if you are a Muslim, please explain why you put this man in a higher position than your prophet (pboh), isn’t this blasphemous?
    I agree that there is not specific mention of purdah in the Quran, but nevertheless its a women’s choice what she can wear is it not? Why is it banned to be proud of your religion?
    A free country would not tell you what to wear unless you are exposing your birthday suit for everyone to see.

    Now Mr. Kirilikovali, you claim I am JDA, why oh why would I take the trouble if I were to make a whole new account, become a moderator to a website, etc. just to attack the “oppressed” Turks?
    Come on man, use some realism.
    Yo soy Xicano, y que?
    You don’t think a Mexican can support Armenians suddenly, why you prejudiced against us as well now.

    Also to the Turks who indeed do claim that we Native Americans (for the ignorant here Mexicans are Native American) are Turkish, I do not recall little Sukru at the table next to me in my childhood, nor General Murad fighting alongside Hunab Pakal, so please cut the bs, its annoying.

    And Edmond is not fake either, I know the fellow, very good man if I might add. But now we are on the subject of JDA, I wouldn’t mind chatting with the man, he sounds very intelligent.

    Also Mr.Kirlikovali, how come at a site you are at and seemingly friends with the head there Johnathan Wilson, how come you allow only anti Armenian propaganda, but ban any comments that defend Armenians, I was not rude nor violated any rules, I thought it was a fair “debate”, but I digress, I will let you continue to attack the “evil” System of a Down before they take over Turkey lol

  65. Edmond Avatar
    Edmond

    Mr. K:

    You should stop your act; you know very well that others on this particular discussion are not jda. He/She may have posted under other names in other forums to an advantage to expose you (well done) but surely jda does not speak for me or anyone else.
    However He/She does have you against the wall that all you can do is to deny any fact beyond common sense and just keep repeating yourself like a trained parrot. Jda also represents an Ancient civilization called Hayastan….and he stands for justice, liberty, and freedom for all….just like the rest of us Armenians and our honored Mexican brother here speaking against you…. and you and your cronies sir, represent Turkey as a Nation. Choose your words very carefully.

    You must reply to J’s challenge if you have any respect for yourself. If not then I suggest you do not repeat yourself again.

  66. jda Avatar
    jda

    TURKISH DENIALISTS:

    DISNEYLAND COMES TO YOUR RESCUE

    Over the past three months, I have marvelled at the racist and ahistorical postings by Mr. Kirlikovali. So, I hypothesized that there is no racist, irrelevant and illogical statement he would not welcome and bless, so long as it is anti-Armenian.

    Here is an exchange I had with him under the nom de plume Walter Murphy in the Pasadena Star News about Murphy’s father meeting two dishonest Armenians while mountain climbing 100 years ago:

    Walter Murphy
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#449 Saturday Dec 27
    I would like to add my humble support to Professor Ergun, [I baited the vanity hook with the “Professor” honorarium] because his many quotations are similar to those collected by my father, Raleigh K.
    Murphy, who climbed many Caucasian mountains in the years just after WWI.

    In one memorable meeting he had at a caravanserai near Mt Elbrus, Two Armenian traders from Tisneyastan in what is now Gyumri, admitted that
    Armenians never made rugs, but stole the idea of rugs from the Mohammedans.
    These traders were named
    Migee Moogian and Tonal Patian. These recollections are in
    My father’s memoirs
    “In tisneystan” and you may quote them. ”

    [On its own, the quote simply displays some vague anti-Armenian bias, this time about rugs. But Ergun should have recognized that “Migee Moogian” is Mickey Mouse [Armo for Mouse is Moog], Tonal Patian is Donald Duck [pat=duck] and Tisneyastan is Disneyland. ]

    [Ol’Ergun acted as if the keys to the magic kingdom had been given to him by Valter Tisney himself. His response:]

    Ergun Kirlikovali
    Trabuco Canyon, CA
    Reply »
    |Report Abuse |Judge it! |#450 Sunday Dec 28
    ONE MORE LIGHT

    My deepest gratitude and thanks go to Mr. Walter Murphy who shone another light on the Armenian deception; a light, perhaps heretofore unknown, but nevertheless, significant and much appreciated.

    If I had done nothing in this column in the two months since I have been exposing the Armenian falsifications, at least I have facilitated the shining of ONE MORE LIGHT on the Armenian fraud.

    I have never said the Armenians did not suffer; I said Turks and other suffered, too. Exposing the Armenian war crimes coupled with ARmenian hate crimes, I have always tried to point to the Armenian complicity in the human tragedy that is the civil war, not genocide.

    Thank you Mr. Murphy!

    Ergun Kirlikovali

    Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides

    http://www.turkla.com
    My dead cannot rise from their graves and write here to defend themsleves; i must be their voice.

    I feel, with Walter Murphy’s kind and gentle contribution, my silent dead have found another voice.

    [I particularly like how the silent dead find voice, now that Mickey and Donald have spilled the beans on bad Armenian rug traders in Georgia 100 years ago.]

    [Berktay quotes the Turkish scholar concerning how the Turkish denialists propaganize themselves, but nobody else. Do any of you think the constant, insulting and illogic Kirlikvali spews advances your cause?]

  67. jda Avatar
    jda

    tomorrow: learn how Ergun disagreed with his own favorite Genocide denialist, whose work he appears never to have read, much less understood.

    weekend bonus: find out how, after he insulted an American’s courage, he chickened out of an offer to box it out in a refereed match anywhere anytime. [the great, brave pseudo Turk has become an OC coward]

    and: read how he insulted a Mexican American journalist working for the OC weekely on account of his race. repeatedly, from behind the safety of his locked gate community. google ‘vile Kirlikovali” and Arellano and Tijuana to find the cite.

  68. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    That was the “rat” in ararat talking…

    Just ignore that Pinocchian… Not worth our time…

  69. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    JDA,

    When you are civiliezd enough to use your own real name, like I do for many decades, out of respect for the unsuspecting public, then we’ll tak.

    Until then, you are nothing more than the rat in ararat…

  70. J Avatar
    J

    And you don’t have any self respect. Prove the qoutes were wrong and then I’ll give you one simple question. You answer that and you’ll be my hero. Stop talking to JDA. He’s already slammed and rolled you in the dirt along with all your lies. Give others a chance or do you have a secret relationship with him we don’t know about?

  71. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    The rat in ararat is talking…

    PS: If you are so courageus, then reveal your identity, like the rest of us. Deception and lying seem to be natural bodily functions for some of you, like blinking or sneezing…

  72. jda Avatar
    jda

    INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY ON DISPLAY

    I infer that the Turkish and Turkish American establishment has decided that as Genocide recognition by the Congress and President approached, they would adopt a policy of villifying Armenians and academics supporting the Genocide thesis to create in the minds of third parties the impression that these issues are too difficult to sort out, and that Armenians are too unpleasant to care about, see e.g. the countless and quite shameful posts here and throughout the web by Mr. Kirlikovali using Nazi terms like “backstabber” and “traitor” to describe Armenians of 1915 and today.

    They also would scream “civil war” every time the AG is mentioned. It does not seem to work.

    A hilarious example of the intellectual dishonesty that riddles the TA efforts is the treatment of Guenter Lewy. In 2006 Mr. Kirlikovali praised Guenter Lewy’s book in a letter to the Middle East Quarterly. He subsequently in these pages praisedthe retired political scientist, saying that he “proved” there was no Genocide. In truth, Lewy did no such thing, as anyone who can read can tell.

    Lewy said that there were three arguments the proponents of the AG advance, and that he finds none persuasive. The assertion that there are only three arguments is subject to attack, but Lewy did not say a Genocide did not occur.

    Lewy did say that the “civil war” thesis the TA and T establishments scream on a daily basis was a “travesty of history” at page 122. He applauds Turkish scholar Derengel, who wrote that Armenians suffered “colossal crimes” in Anatolia. He agrees that hundreds of thousands were murdered. He agrees thatthe Turkish state suppresses dissent on this issue.

    I asked Kirlikovali on the pages of the Pasadena Star News if he could agree with statements Lewy made in a 2007 speech at Harvard:

    “Can you agree with any of these statements:

    1. The issue of whether the Ottomans committed Genocide should be regarded as an open question, yet to be resolved.

    2. No one disputes the extent of Armenian suffering at the hands of the Ottoman Turks during the World War I. With little or no notice, the Ottoman government forced Armenian men, women, and children to leave their historic communities; during the subsequent harrowing trek over mountains and through deserts, large numbers of them died of starvation and disease, or were murdered.

    3. In 1915-1916, at least 40 per cent of the Ottoman Armenians were starved, succumbed to illness, or were murdered.

    4.The Turkish government regularly threatens retaliation against anyone calling into question its own version of events. The overzealous Turkish prosecutors have brought dozens of cases against novelists, publishers, scholars and journalists. Many of these cases have been dismissed and never reached the trial stage. But the effect of these prosecutions nevertheless is undoubtedly to discourage and put a chill on an open and unbiased discussion of Armenian question in Turkey today.

    5. Turkish allegations of wholesale disloyalty, treason and revolt by the Ottoman Armenians, the Canadian researcher Gwynne Dyer has once concluded appropriately “wholly true as far as Armenian sentiment went, only partly true in terms of overt acts, and totally insufficient as a justification for what was done to the Armenians.”

  73. jda Avatar
    jda

    Kirlikovali disagreed with each of the statements his hero Lewy made at Harvard.
    Either Kirlikovali never read the book (which mirrors the speech), or he is consciously lying about what Lewy said.

    The logical mind admits no alternative.

  74. Kirlikovali Avatar
    Kirlikovali

    That’s the rat in ararat talking again…

  75. BM Sharef Avatar
    BM Sharef

    The Europeans have committed numerous genocides against Muslims and non-Muslims in Africa, Asia and the Americas throughout history, then distort history and fake genocides against Christian minorities in the Muslim World that never happened in order to direct focus way from their heinous crimes against humanity and shadow the facts. The indigenous Indian population of North America was practically annihilated by European Settlers who were in fact welcomed by the peaceful Indians.

    The Armenians were never persecuted in Turkey and on the contrary, they held good government positions and enjoyed prosperous life under the Ottoman rule as Sultan Abdul-Hameed stated in response to British and French accusations. However, they were used by Britain, France and Russia (as were the Jews) to bring the downfall of the Ottoman Empire and have collaborated with and fought along side the Russians in Turkey’s wars with Russia. This is treason of the highest kind! Armenians who died were killed fighting the Turkish army in war, not in a genocide of defenseless innocent people as the case in Palestine.

  76. El Mexicano Avatar
    El Mexicano

    Er BM Sharef,
    Those Indians you spoke of, I am one of them and while I truly do appreciate you recognising what happened to us, you have no right to minimise what Armenians suffered in 1915.

    You mistakenly and xenophobically attribute every suffering to Europeans and Christians, yes most of the people who butchered us were White Christians, yes we did welcome them in. The point is that the Turks did the same to Armenians, thats what you forget.

    Now you can give the whole righteous avenger nonsense about how all Europeans or all Christians are evil, but guess what, bad and good people exist everywhere. Do you think just because someone calls themself Muslim that they adhere to the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed.
    If anything you should be angry that the Quran is being used in a blasphemous way by Turkey.

    Did you know that Israel and Turkey are in an alliance, Israel and Turkey have been buddies since the beginning, do you think that Palestinians are only now experiencing this, they have for years, but great Turkey did nothing for them, while “evil” Armenia has been on Palestine’s side mostly.

    Armenia was against the Iraq War, the Afghan War, most of the wars in the region, Turkey was all for it as long as they could take land and resources.

    Maybe you should read about what Pan Turkism is before commenting.

    Armenians were killed because of that, to make a Turkic only empire, much like the Spaniards did to us and the English did to our brothers up North.

    Their rebellion, however small, was not treason, they were freedom fighters, the Ottoman Empire was multinational, many countries became Republics, most Muslims countries also fought for independence from the Ottoman Empire, are they now also guilty of siding with the West?

    I as a Native American, a Nican Tlaca, descendant by my forefathers kin of Nahuatl and Maya, of Uto Aztecan and Mesoamerican pride demand the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, for Genocide is Genocide, our conscience is more important than petty political squabbles and the right thing to do is support Armenians

  77. jda Avatar
    jda

    Sharef,

    You need to read. I suggest you start with the Lewy 2005 book entitled “a Dispued Genocide”.
    Lewy is an author hailed by the Turkish establishment.

    You are claiming that Armenians died in a civil war. While I am sure some did die fighting, those are not the Genocidal deaths. The deaths by Genocide are the deaths of civilians under guard. Lewy has rejected the ‘civil war’ thesis in print, calling it a “travesty of history”, see page 122 of the book. He also says that no historian with a conscience can advance it, and he applauds Turkish historian Derengel, who wrote that Armenians suffered ‘colossal crimes”.

  78. jda Avatar
    jda

    Mr. Fein’s work in the Genocide trade discredits even attorneys. Whether he believes a practice or history is Genocidal depends not on the evidence, but rather upon the identity of his client.

    He writes “Moving forward on the [Armenian,Assyrian and Greek]“genocide” question requires placing the
    decision with an international commission of impartial experts with
    access to all relevant archives. ”

    Interestingly, he has no qualms, on behalf of his Tamil clients, from labelling as Genocide the activities of the Sinhalese culture and government, sans judgment.

    In fact, on behalf of that Tamil client he decries as Genocide activities that even denialist authors admit occurred to Armenians. And, the Sinhalese complain of exactly the same thing Turkish sites and this toady accuse the Armenians of. The difference? Tamils and Turks are Fein clients. Sinhalese and Armenians are not.

    Nor does Fein read or retain much. His client Lewy, whom he cites as an authority, has written and said that the issue of AG is an open question, not a closed one as Fein implies. In fact, few ‘academics’ deny the Genocide – they say, as does Lewy, that it is an open question. i.e. they are Agnostics. And, of course, some have come to agree there was a Genocide [Quataert], or have given interviews as long ago as 1996 that Archival records imply one [Lowry].

    Lewy admits at page 122 of his celebrated 2005 book and 2007 speech that Armenians suffered ‘colossal crimes’. And unlike Bruce Fein, Lewy disavows the ‘civil war’ theory that Fein tries to say explains away Genocide claims.

    So, Fein represents Lewy, disagrees with Lewy, and takes wildly different positions under the same or similar facts for his Turkish and Tamil clients.

    I imagine that the Sinhalese government representatives Fein wants to prosecute will copy into their briefs the conclusions Fein states with approval while villifying Armenains as terrorists, and denying that Armenian Genocide.

    Yes, lawyers can often argue differing sides of an issue, but let’s not pretend Fein is anything more than a hired and retained advocate, trying to offer his clients PR which fails the smell test.

  79. ergun@cox.net Avatar
    ergun@cox.net

    the rat in ararat is now an expert in law (smiles)

  80. jda Avatar
    jda

    Mr. Kirlikovali.

    Res ipsa loquitor, meaning ‘the act speaks for itself”. In this case, my post stands unrebutted. Your need, like a child, to dismiss ideas with ad hominem attacks also stands as a tacit admission you are unable to respond on the merits.

  81. El Mexicano Avatar
    El Mexicano

    It seems Ergun as if you don’t have a good reply for him back, I’d say you’ve just been out argued carnal

  82. jda Avatar
    jda

    Mr. Kirlikovali,

    By your own words and admissions contained in the OC Weekly, for all to see, you have a history of making racist statements not only about Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians, but also about Mexicans.

    And now it seems that Mexican and Hispanic people in California are catching on to you. Your exploits have been posted to Hispanic websites by Hispanic writers. Go ahead and google your name to see what goes on.

    I recommend you apologize to your California commmunity for the racial offenses you have given: comparing the Armenian dead of 1915 to dead flies (Pasadena Star News post 173), criticizing a Mexican American journalist by saying he should not do things as they are done in Tiujuana,
    and repeatedly callling him “speedy gonzalez”, even after he and others told you this was a racist caricature.

    Amazingly you have posted scores of messages saying that even uttering the words “Armenian Genocide” is a racist assault on you. So, as an immigrant to the United States, it saeems you have learned to scream ” I am a victim”: and “racism” as well as anyone.

  83. ergun@cox.net Avatar
    ergun@cox.net

    You are not fooilng anyone jda, or el mexicano, or indian ara, watson murphy, or million other fake names you infiltrate the honest forums with in order to spread Armenian propaganda. Your jig is up!

    I have nothing to discuss with a liar like you.

    Once a rat, always a rat… even when hidden in ararat…

  84. El Mexicano Avatar
    El Mexicano

    Hmmm, never heard your reply on Chicano.org, you know, the one where we smacked you and proved to you I and JDA aren’t the same person

  85. ergun@cox.net Avatar
    ergun@cox.net

    If you are not the rat in ararat, then you are just another member of the AFATH gang (armenian falsifiers and Turk haters). Either way, I don’t care. The only thing that I care about is this: jda hides his identity; writes under some 1000 fake names so he can stage bogus debates among them to show unsuspecting readers how right armenians are and/or to give the false image that a ground swell of armenian reactions are taking place. Either way, this jda is one sicko armenian. Insteadf of listing his 1001 names, I just call him the rat in ararat (easier to remember.) You are either that rat in ararat… or another rat in ararat… After all, there seems to be no shortage of rats in ararat, right? (smiles)

  86. jda Avatar
    jda

    The Great Mongol Chieftain of Orange County and his playmates would do well to avoid ‘vermin’ terminology so well-favored by his spiritual predecessors like Dr Nazim and Goebbels, who referred, respectively, to Armenians and Jews as ‘bacilli” and ‘vermin”.

  87. ergun@cox.net Avatar
    ergun@cox.net

    Your concern for our well-being is touching, General Kanayan, or Dro, or the blood-thirsty Armenian murderer of Turkish women and children. I always wondered if jda is another version of dro… sort of like a modern version?

    once a rat, always a rat, like the rat in ararat… (smiles)

  88. jda Avatar
    jda

    The issue is not who I or anyone on this Board is. It is instead your gleeful use of genocidal language.

  89. ergun@cox.net Avatar
    ergun@cox.net

    Calling a liar, caught pants down many times, a rat is genocidal language? That can only come from a lying rat (smiles)

    Your concoction of Walter Murphy, another fake, non-existen person, made me finally realize the rat in ararat… (more smiles)

    If you don’t like the rat in ararat, you should not have lied. It is your punishment for duping unsuspecting readres. I realized that you are now adding more words to ararat, to dilute the effect of rat, like mount ararat. Maybe you should add even more qulaifiers like “the most magnificent mount in the world ararat” (more smiles.)

    But remember, you can run, but you cannot hide from the rat in ararat!

  90. jda Avatar
    jda

    Mr. Kirlikovali,

    How Turks, Armenians, Asssyrians and Greeks find ways respectfully to speak with one another is important and necessary. The daily drumbeat or racist and Nazi talk you provide, and which this publication endorses, are a sad testament that Genocidal racism of the kind pioneered by Nazim and Sakir, executed by Talaat and perfected by Hitler, Goebbels and Rosenthal is alive and well.

    You have written things which match the Genocidal racism of the worst CUP theorists.

    Examples: that most Armenians of 1915 and today are ‘backstabbers” and ‘traitors”, that most who died deserved to die, that most Armenian Americans want to kill Turks ‘on sight’. You have ridiculed how Armenians look, and what their women look like. You add to your drivel the worst Oprah-esque whining about your supposed suffering, while all evidence suggests you are a well fed California businessman living in the lap of luxury. Easy to be a Turkish nationalist in Orange County. Maybe you shpould live in Anadalou for a while, ask the local Kurds what happened to the Armenians all gone and long dead.

    Keep it up. I can think of no better demonstration that Genocidal racism is promoted by the Turkish American establishment than your Nazi ravings.

  91. Ergun KIRLIKOVALI Avatar
    Ergun KIRLIKOVALI

    Your contributions to this debate:
    1- Walter Murphy
    2- the rat in ararat
    3- Pinocchian

    I wonder why?

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